Robbie Deans

[jollyswagman]

Based on this weekends results, when the chips are down, and you are playing for keeps, passion is everything, technical stuff is well technical stuff.

The Welsh will never understand the haka, but by god can they sing. The Kiwis can not sing, nor can they surf as well as us. A Private School kid from the Eastern suburbs will never completely understand Rooty Hill High School kids. And so on.
Under extreme stress of RWC knockout you need to appeal to the inner mongrel of the players.

Head Coaches must be from the home nation. P Divvers may have been a clown, but he was the Saffers clown, and that meant something more than having Eddie Jones as head coach.

Bottom Line, Robbie is not one of us, never has been, never will be. Would be OK as assistant coach, but xenophobia rules for appointing National Coaches.

After watching QC (Quade Cooper) during all of the national anthems during the 3N and WC, along the family comments, I seriously doubt he is 100% ready to bleed green & gold. He is still a Kiwi at heart and although some might get all fired up - he choked on the big stage - big time. As far as chokers go, I think Robbie did his best to choke as much as a coach could too. Four years is a very long time to wait for another chance.

 

[fatprop]

There is a bit of selective memory here, Link was in the mix, but he didn't have the runs on the board having just moved on from the Tahs to Stade.

At the Tahs he was considered a prudent, tough & smart coach.

It wasn't until he got to the Reds that he became an attacking genius and the new messiah

 

[drewprint]

Ivesaid this before but I'm putting it on record here.

A few years back when Deans was appointed, Ewen was the leading Australian candidate for the job. He didn't get it and ended up a couple of years later at a young reds squad building (and now winning) to a championship. Qld votes where probably the reason he didn't get the appointment in the first place.

Now, during deans tenure at the helm, the ambitious but out of favor ex brumbies coach David Nucifora has been quietly positioning himself on the cusp of the job he wants,he went from director to assistant via a review he conducted and from information available managed to appoint himself.

Now JON said during the review couple of years back that he would trust old Daves view, so why was Dingo reappointed.

Theory 1: Ewen is popular, in both the two biggest states and in general public opinion due to last seasons coaching. So if Dingo was to be sacked there would be a huge push for him to take over. But if the reds fall from grace over the next two years and Ewen is down on luck, expect a boardroom execution where Deans is kicked out in the middle of the night and Coach Nucifora appointed before dawn.

The pawns are in place my friends, the snake is in the hole and he is ready to strike.

Objection! Speculation.

 

[Scarfman]

Yes, Link did apply, and yes, he was the leading candidate, but JON pulled a hammy so that we could delay the decision until after the Kiwis made their decision. It was very clever.

 

[RedsHappy]

In Genia, Cooper, Barnes, Beale, JOC (James O'Connor), Ioane, Tapuai, Horne, Mitchell etc. we have the most talented backline we have had for ten years, maybe more. Its an absolute disgrace that such talent is being so totally wasted.

From time to time our forwards have looked good too. The basis of a good pack has been there but Deans' youth fetish has meant casting off better players for younger ones and that hasn't worked. Forwards, with the possible exception of open sides, tend to mature around 27-28. That's when we dispose of them.

We have had the makings. But we have a coaching team unable to develop good play consistently. Occasionally it all comes together but then next week it goes to custard and we start trying a new paradigm like this WC's defensive crashball centres nonsense. Less than 12 months ago we cut the French to shreds. Could we do it next week? We'll never know but I doubt it. The reason we can't is the new paradigm and the selection of particular players and the positioning of them. (Remember Deans promised he would trial JOC (James O'Connor) at 12? I'm still waiting, maybe in the 3rd vs 4th non event he'll give it a go.)

Deans has proven that his history as a NZ coach was not a one-off, its what he always does. And it hasn't worked for Australia either. Because of JON's incompetence we are stuck with him for another two years. Unless he has a road to Damascus experience and totally changes his outlook the next two years will be the usual crap punctuated by a few good performances. Not a lot to look forward to.

Perfectly assessed, Hawko. Just one comment on your first point re backs. I've said it many, many times, but IMO nowhere near enough critical assessment has been made of Dean's management capability as a head coach as directly expressed by his choice and structure of specialist and support coaches, so critical as they are to success at the elite level.

No need to rehearse here my numerous posts on this subject since mid-2010 (when the problem was just as evident), but the fact that Deans never, not once, in his four years with the Wallabies appointed a specialist coach explicitly for the backs and attack is hugely revealing and explains many of the appalling lapses of coherence, weak set plays, and almost non-existent ensemble work of most recent Wallabies' backs' performances. Very recently, Deans has himself assumed the role of backs coach, an almost unprecedented step at national level. Watching the performance of the Wallaby backs this RWC, is it not obvious that Deans has totally failed to add value as backs coach (indeed he has subtracted value), and, just as you say, our exceptional current base of back line talents has been recklessly mis-led and wasted. Can we objectively say that in all of 2011, the Wallaby backs performed better than those of 2007?

It's why Hawko I feel so wretchedly empty today: how do we face the next two years with any motivation in the face of this staggeringly obvious incompetence at the national level of our game?

 

[aussie1st]

Can we objectively say that in all of 2011, the Wallaby backs performed better than those of 2007?

It just seemed we shuffled the players around and played the same tactic. We have shown flair at times but that basically went missing in the big games. Yes part of it was down to the forwards just like in 07 but when we did eventually get the ball we went no where just like in 07. The only difference is the players are younger so should improve but I don't believe Deans is the man that can take us to the WC. Ewen has done wonders at the Reds, he got the best out of our 9/10 which is always a good start so it's time to move on and try him out.

 

[Braveheart81]

Hopefully the right players stand up during the 2012 Super XV season.

I would love to see us play some tests next season with a backline of Genia, Barnes, Ioane, Tapuai, Horne, O'Connor, and Beale.

That is not a big backline but they can all tackle. I would have no problems fielding a midfield of Barnes, Tapuai and Horne at 10, 12 and 13 because they are all excellent defenders. Cooper is yet to find his feet as a test number 10 and Barnes offers the direction and backline leadership that we need. Having those other players outside him who are all good ball players means that we don't need the most flamboyant number 10 in the world. We need a number 10 who will get the ball to the outside backs at the right times and at the other times, boot the crap out of it!

That is a backline that is young enough that they could play together for four years and be in a great position next RWC. Genia, Horne, Tapuai, O'Connor and Beale should be at the height of their powers in four years time (I love that phrase!). Ioane, Barnes also won't be too old.

 

[FANATIC]

Perfectly assessed, Hawko. Just one comment on your first point re backs. I've said it many, many times, but IMO nowhere near enough critical assessment has been made of Dean's management capability as a head coach as directly expressed by his choice and structure of specialist and support coaches, so critical as they are to success at the elite level.

No need to rehearse here my numerous posts on this subject since mid-2010 (when the problem was just as evident), but the fact that Deans never, not once, in his four years with the Wallabies appointed a specialist coach explicitly for the backs and attack is hugely revealing and explains many of the appalling lapses of coherence, weak set plays, and almost non-existent ensemble work of most recent Wallabies' backs' performances. Very recently, Deans has himself assumed the role of backs coach, an almost unprecedented step at national level. Watching the performance of the Wallaby backs this RWC, is it not obvious that Deans has totally failed to add value as backs coach (indeed he has subtracted value), and, just as you say, our exceptional current base of back line talents has been recklessly mis-led and wasted. Can we objectively say that in all of 2011, the Wallaby backs performed better than those of 2007?

It's why Hamko I feel so wretchedly empty today: how do we face the next two years with any motivation in the face of this staggeringly obvious incompetence at the national level of our game?

I have questioned Deans ability and tactics every single match and when I heard the news in 2007 Deans had the gig, well, it ruined my Christmas.
The tallent he has either sacked benched or ignored, the EXPERIENCED players he has disrespected, in the " Deans Experiment" has been proved wrong in our shocking losses over four years. If we had sent an Aussie to coach the All Blacks and the ABs had the Wallabies loss record Kiwis would have had him in a pine box. So why are WE expected to put up with this.
Who is next in line? and I have no idea what so ever about how to face the next two years.
It hurts too much to deal with today.

 

[RedsHappy]

Hopefully the right players stand up during the 2012 Super XV season.

I would love to see us play some tests next season with a backline of Genia, Barnes, Ioane, Tapuai, Horne, O'Connor, and Beale.

That is not a big backline but they can all tackle. I would have no problems fielding a midfield of Barnes, Tapuai and Horne at 10, 12 and 13 because they are all excellent defenders. Cooper is yet to find his feet as a test number 10 and Barnes offers the direction and backline leadership that we need. Having those other players outside him who are all good ball players means that we don't need the most flamboyant number 10 in the world. We need a number 10 who will get the ball to the outside backs at the right times and at the other times, boot the crap out of it!

That is a backline that is young enough that they could play together for four years and be in a great position next RWC. Genia, Horne, Tapuai, O'Connor and Beale should be at the height of their powers in four years time (I love that phrase!). Ioane, Barnes also won't be too old.

Please let's not keep perpetuating this implicit notion that 'loads of talented players' is anything but a necessary - but not in any way sufficient - attribute at national or S15 level in order to build sustained excellence in back line performance. We have this habit of constantly highlighting what we want of individual players, or indicating that 'it's just all about selection'. It's just as much, if not more so, about management and coaching competencies that turn talent into viable structures and disciplined game strategies, week in, week out. To achieve the consistently high standards required, a back line needs top flight technical coaching, one-on-one mentoring, and the ruthless approach to the correct forms of training and practice that comes from good leadership. All I ask is that we focus on the required attributes of leadership and technical management or coaching, as much as we do upon our desired selections of individual players.

 

[Scarfman]

The Wallabies "set play" is for Cooper to skip the pass to Beale in the second line, and for him to individually magic up a try. Sometimes JOC (James O'Connor) does it instead. If you take those tries out of the playbook, we've got nothing.

Miracle a couple of tries, and hold on for the win.

 

[RedsHappy]

Ivesaid this before but I'm putting it on record here.

A few years back when Deans was appointed, Ewen was the leading Australian candidate for the job. He didn't get it and ended up a couple of years later at a young reds squad building (and now winning) to a championship. Qld votes where probably the reason he didn't get the appointment in the first place.

Now, during deans tenure at the helm, the ambitious but out of favor ex brumbies coach David Nucifora has been quietly positioning himself on the cusp of the job he wants,he went from director to assistant via a review he conducted and from information available managed to appoint himself.

Now JON said during the review couple of years back that he would trust old Daves view, so why was Dingo reappointed.

Theory 1: Ewen is popular, in both the two biggest states and in general public opinion due to last seasons coaching. So if Dingo was to be sacked there would be a huge push for him to take over. But if the reds fall from grace over the next two years and Ewen is down on luck, expect a boardroom execution where Deans is kicked out in the middle of the night and Coach Nucifora appointed before dawn.

The pawns are in place my friends, the snake is in the hole and he is ready to strike.

Don't know about the QLD votes referred to WJ, but there's much insight and correctness in what you say, well sleuthed (or snake-hunted). One of the many reasons my concerns grew hugely re Deans' coaching group etc was the way JO'N announced that after the 'disappointing' 2009 EOTY Test outcomes a 'full review' of 'Wallaby coaching needs' etc would be undertaken and the results shared with the rugby public. All that ever happened: nothing happened, or was revealed, expect 'the need for more support for RD, especially on EOYT tours'. The real meaning of this was that Nucifora was quietly inserted into the Wallabies' coaching group, with a highly unclear role; even today he has the meaningless title of 'coaching co-ordinator'. As you say, it's obvious where all this is potentially leading.

When needed, Nuci can blame Deans, but have no clear responsibility himself, and yet point to his 'years of inside Wallaby coaching experience' as 'making him the best man for the job'. This can all be accelerated, should Deans need to 'resign to pursue other interests in Swaziland rugby'. Note too the insidious lack of praise and public recognition for Link that arose from the ARU HQ either during or after Link's superb revival of the Reds, it was though this barely happened, rather the key focus was 'Deans promoting and developing superb depth in the Wallabies with all the brilliant young Xs he's brought on...', gush, gush.

The singular insularity and weakness of the ARU Board and its dominance by a CEO who's been in that role far too long for the game's good, and is now more like emperor than leader, is leading to a dangerous period of decline in the competence of Wallaby leadership and play, and the value of the Wallaby brand as an key commercial asset of Australian rugby. This is most vividly captured in this latest WC campaign, that (after the distinctly mediocre 2008-9 period) was from 2010 trumped up as to be the crowning event of the Deans' era, yet has turned out to be nothing but an affirmation of how little, if at all, the team's real capability has developed since 2007.

As mentioned, the dark root of all this lies in the historical politics and poor governance of the ARU board, and is/was perfectly captured in the near-scandalous re-appointment of Deans and JO'N for at least two more years despite zero compliance with any form of publicly revealed KPI's or goals, or the awaiting of an RWC outcome that would confirm or otherwise the potential wisdom of such major retention extensions.

 

[waratahjesus]

WJ, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, after all, this is the Internet, but did Ewen actually apply? You say he was the leading candidate, and didn't get it, but did he formally apply when Deans was appointed? I can't recall if he did.
I suspect you are on the money as far as Nucifora goes, however.

Ewen was quite aggressive about applying, if deans had gotten the kiwi job, the general feeling (outside of old) was it was Ewens. There where interviews and a process that was then thrown out the window when Robbie became available.

 

[darkhorse]

I don't think Connolly would have picked those players to be honest. And to credit Deans with selecting some of the best young players in the country is a bit of a joke. It's a no-brainer right? Also, is getting knocked out in the quarters such a bad thing if you win every trophy in between? We won nothing and got knocked out in the semis and still have nothing...so what's the difference?

I don't care about the RWC anymore. I would rather win in b/w. However, you have to give credit where credit is due. With the limited resources available to him, Deans has done a good job of developing young players. Go ahead have an open season on his tactics and selections but lets be realistic.

Deans picking young players is a choice. Connolly tried his best to not choose anyone under 25. The only adventurous choice he made was for Berrick Barnes and that was very forced.

Think about it, these players were very untried and untested atm. A lot of people were miffed when they were selected.

Cooper 08: At the time still playing like a bumbling fool.
Alexander 08: Had played 5 times of the brumbies bench.
Kepu 08: Hadn't got close to nailing down the tahs starting spot
JOC (James O'Connor) 08: Had potential, but even Mitchell wasn't starting him every game.
Pocock: people were furious that he got selected ahead of waugh, a year or two later this selection is taken as a given. It is the kind of selection that people string him up for though.
... Slipper etc


It is a bit ridiculous how we say he is a shit coach for some of his weird decisions ala JOC (James O'Connor) on the wing, and then when they turn out to be inspired we all pretend that it was the obvious thing to do and we wanted it all along. How many of you who were complaining about JOC (James O'Connor) on the wing would have preferred Turner or Cummins there on Sunday?

 

[waratahjesus]

Redshappy, drewprint - the speculation about QLD not wanting Ewen to coach the wallabies comes off what was said media, Internet at the time. People forget that Ewen left the Tahs with the same "can't coach backs, boring rugby" sentiment that hickey did. When deans was appointed it was all about "exciting rugby and the wallaby brand" I have no doubt the QLD didn't want him, there was a backlash when he applied for the QLD job a couple of years later.

 

[Slim 293]

Ewen was quite aggressive about applying, if deans had gotten the kiwi job, the general feeling (outside of old) was it was Ewens. There where interviews and a process that was then thrown out the window when Robbie became available.

Actually, Nucifora was the clear frontrunner before Deans entered the mix...

 

[waratahjesus]

Actually, Nucifora was the clear frontrunner before Deans entered the mix...

With the exception of the player backlash, something that is now gone that the brumbies have moved on.

 

[Slim 293]

The job was his though until Deans came in...

Ewen's chances had dropped considerably after the Tahs came 13th, and he was barely ranked ahead of Laurie Fisher and Alan Jones...

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Precisely. Ewen had had a bad year his last outing in super rugby and was off in europe coaching stade. whilst he may have wanted it, he was not favourite. Nucifora who had had reasonable success with Auckland was favoured as an aussie coach.
you can bag deans all you want, but at the time the decision was made to appoint him, he was the coach with the best resume around aside from Jake White.
He's made some interesting selections, but he's also taken australia from being atrocious in the tri nations to winning the tri nations. from regularly getting pumped by the boks and all blacks, to regularly beating the boks and in the past two years, being near even with the all blacks.
Who is the best wallaby? - pocock, brought in by deans
second best? - possibly genia, brought in by deans.
you might not be happy with the world cup result, but compare the years results and last years with the years before deans was appointed.

further, QC (Quade Cooper)'s terrible recent form aside, i would back the RWC 2011 team to trounce the haggered team of 2007 any day. the forward pack back then was old and absolutely dominated by england in the quarter final if you'll remember. if you think the wallaby pack against south africa was bad in the quarters, re watch 2007.

Deans' biggest problems for the game on sunday were:
No kurtley
the bad decision to not select Sharpe
an out of form QC (Quade Cooper)
as a result of kurtley, having to play second rate centres. Faainga is not a test centre. McCabe can be, based on his heart and effort. not much else.

If all this hadn't happened, would they have won? no flat out the all blacks are a better team. at every position, they were better and would've been if all wallabies were available. based on yesterday, IMO dagg at full strength is a better full back than beale.

the biggest mistake re deans is the fact he was reappointed before the world cup. that was a panicked decision by the ARU to ward off him being poached by NZRU in the event of a Henry failure. Had that happened, ARU would be stuck with no one as Link is already signed up with the reds and they won't want him going anywhere. still a bad decision though.

Deans now must note that if he will not pay barnes at 12, he has to move someone better there. JOC (James O'Connor) should be moving in and Deans should be demanding the rebels play him at 12 (which they will). the faainga's are super rugby players and back up test players at best. bring in Lucas and Ben Taps. Develop more depth at test level centres with more dynamic players capable of playing a more all round game (a la Steyn, Nonu, Fourie and Smith).
rocky elsom seems incapable of putting in 100% week in week out. Get an alternate 6 in the frame.
More scrum camps.

 

[Slim 293]

Actually, Deans had been awarded the job before Ewen was sacked from the Tahs and then went to coach them to the final...

But he had come off a terrible year with the Tahs that had pretty much put Nucifora as last man standing to take up the role before JON got 'sick' and Deans failed to get the AB gig...

 

[Swarley]

I think Nucifora will get it. McKenzie's committed until 2013, Nucifora isn't. He's been in the set-up for a while, which works in his favour. As long as we pick a scrum coach, hire a full time kicking coach and set out a proper game plan we'll be fine.