Richard Graham to quit the Force and join the Reds

[Ruggo]

If I was a Force player I think I would want Woody's arse booted out the door. Look at some of the things he has said.

1/ He wants to go to a rugby strong state. (implying there is something wrong about WA rugby)
2/ He wants to go to a team that has one the won a title

I don't blame any player for taking offence to that. He has basically labelled them as substandard and made it very clear he is not commited to their cause. I have defended Woody in the past but this is piss poor in my view.

He could of just simply said that things just haven't worked out and it would be mutually benificial for him to move on.

Looks like Woody is more interested in inheriting somebody elses success which surely does no reflect well on his ability as a coach. I still trust the QRU in their decision though as they surely know more than me as a simple keyboard warrior with no experience in sports administration. I trust their reasons for wanting him whatever they may be.

 

[kiap]

The Reds wanted a coach that would work under Link. Don't think they even really advertised the job too widely (news of it would have got out).

More highly-credentialed coaches would not be accept not being totally in charge.

That's why they hired Woody. Less seniority.

 

[Searle's accountant]

If I was a Force player I think I would want Woody's arse booted out the door. Look at some of the things he has said.

1/ He wants to go to a rugby strong state. (implying there is something wrong about WA rugby)
2/ He wants to go to a team that has one the won a title

I don't blame any player for taking offence to that. He has basically labelled them as substandard and made it very clear he is not commited to their cause. I have defended Woody in the past but this is piss poor in my view.

He could of just simply said that things just haven't worked out and it would be mutually benificial for him to move on.

Looks like Woody is more interested in inheriting somebody elses success which surely does no reflect well on his ability as a coach. I still trust the QRU in their decision though as they surely know more than me as a simple keyboard warrior with no experience in sports administration. I trust their reasons for wanting him whatever they may be.

You have taken him completely out of context.
Qld is intrinsicly a rugby state. A traditional key rugby State. WA is an emerging rugby host. That is what he meant and you know it.
Why wouldn't he want to go to a strong team... makes sense to me. How could you not want to learn from one of rugby's great minds.
The Force do not have the resources QLD do. His coaching will be accelerated immensely at the Reds.
Yes, there are selfish motivations in his decision but they're motivations most of us would be lured by if placed in a similar position.

 

[RedsHappy]

Sa: I think Ruggo's whole point is that: ffs RG, keep these assessments of 'going to a better/stronger/champs rugby State' etc strictly to yourself, if that's what you think. To say them publicly is patronising and provocative to WA/Force players, as it would be to anyone on a similar receiving end when someone resigns and implies or says 'I'm going off to a better place than is employing me now, see you later inferiorites'.

 

[Athilnaur]

You have taken him completely out of context.
Qld is intrinsicly a rugby state. A traditional key rugby State. WA is an emerging rugby host. That is what he meant and you know it.
Why wouldn't he want to go to a strong team... makes sense to me. How could you not want to learn from one of rugby's great minds.
The Force do not have the resources QLD do. His coaching will be accelerated immensely at the Reds.
Yes, there are selfish motivations in his decision but they're motivations most of us would be lured by if placed in a similar position.

Is that you Woody?

 

[waratahjesus]

Sa: I think Ruggo's whole point is that: ffs RG, keep these assessments of 'going to a better/stronger/champs rugby State' etc strictly to yourself, if that's what you think. To say them publicly is patronising and provocative to WA/Force players, as it would be to anyone on a similar receiving end when someone resigns and implies or says 'I'm going off to a better place than is employing me now, see you later inferiorites'.

Agree 100%, regardless of how you choose to interpret his comments they made it seem like he was slumming it at the force. He should have just stated that being from QLD it was an opportunity to move home he couldn't pass up.

 

[Ruggo]

You have taken him completely out of context.
Qld is intrinsicly a rugby state. A traditional key rugby State. WA is an emerging rugby host. That is what he meant and you know it.
Why wouldn't he want to go to a strong team... makes sense to me. How could you not want to learn from one of rugby's great minds.
The Force do not have the resources QLD do. His coaching will be accelerated immensely at the Reds.
Yes, there are selfish motivations in his decision but they're motivations most of us would be lured by if placed in a similar position.

Congratulations on your first post and welcome to the forum. Please don't presume to know what I know as that is just bull.

Whether I have taken Woody out of context or not I don't particually care. Woody was unproffessional to put himself in that situation in the first place. I think it was a mistake on his behalf. I say this as a person who has generally been an admirer of Woody and my comments on him in previous threads would reflect that.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Kiap not sure what your point is: who is the understudy who goes on to greatness in this scenario? Graham? a tad early to predict that - and thats not saying it wont happen

 

[Brumby Jack]

I think all this means is that it will be some time before Scott Allen takes over at the Reds...

 

[Gnostic]

Some thoughts and observations for further discussion.
After Matt Williams and Bob Dwyer the Tahs collapsed and had a bad season from memory. Link took over and the Tahs made the finals I think 4 years out of his 5. From memory those years remained littered with inexplicable collapses in some games and outperformance in others. Lack of consistency was evident. Similarly Link had immediate improvement to a certain level but then performance plateaued and execution remained stubbornly the same.

The big problem then and remains evident now a lack of tactical kicking with any real consistent execution. The game plans of the Reds and the Tahs under Link requires a high level of skill at this phase. The Reds last year were exceptional. This year they mirror the Tahs sides of Link’s era. This is a very telling factor for me. We have credited Link, rightly so IMO, with the massive turn around in the Reds to produce the consistency of application we saw last year off the back of the 2010 result. I have argued since the results started to come through that not enough credit was given to the ground work done by Phil Mooney. Now we see a large number of the backs of Mooney’s side injured and the skills application of the backs is reduced to the same level that I criticise the Tahs for. Perhaps with injures to those key players we are seeing better representation of where Link’s management and coaching skills lie. This isn’t saying he is a bad coach, I am saying he is like the rest of us, has certain skills and abilities and perhaps Link’s greatest asset as a Head Coach is to create systems to get consistency. When the individuals he gets consistency from are high performers at the top of their game this is a great thing. When they are journey men and players with L plates on so to speak consistency isn’t what is needed, they need a performance coach and perhaps Mooney was able to develop the skills of QC (Quade Cooper) and some others.

Genia is massively inconsistent with his kicks from hand, last night for instance he had one that was placed beautifully or extremely lucky depending how you look at it and others were rubbish. Morahans kicks were all rubbish and gifted possession to the Stormers time and again. These two examples are consistent over the time Link has been at the Reds. Look at the Tahs under Link and it was eerily similar in terms of execution from similar high level players.

Perhaps Link’s influence has reached a plateau and maybe he has recognised that and acted reasonably to bring in a fresh view to encourage improvement in areas he is obviously weak in addressing himself or selecting assistants to address. Whether or not RG is the man to do that is another matter.

 

[ChargerWA]

I think the closer truth of the reds woes at current, we as a rugby public are very unforgiving of weakness and have a propensity to over simplify. Admitting that injuries have derailed a season is a sign of weakness and we rarely give each other much leahway in this department.

Missing Quade is bad enough, as he is truly the Red's talisman, but they were doing relatively well with their 2nd choice 10. Currently they are down to their number 5 flyhalf, have had Digby on the sideline and a shocking list of injuries. I think it is too soon to say the Red's have plateaued due to Ewen's coaching. If they had a fully fit roster but were playing as they are now that could be true, but they deserve a chance to get their players back, pick up some confidence before we can judge them.

 

[tranquility]

Quade, Digby, Ant, Saia.

Then we can gage where were at.

 

[Waylon]

R. Grahams comments were arrogant, unapologetic, inflammatory and lacked humility. The players want to beat him up.

he's a dribbler

Good riddance and welcome to QLD. The worst thing to happen to QLD rugby in several seasons

QLD has been decimated by injury which has contributed to their inconsistency. Before the rot set in, they were looking in good form.

They were good enough to beat the Stormers. I think if they hadn't lost the ball upon grounding in the second half, they would have won the game.

Link is a good coach. If you lose 4 fly halves in half a season, you will struggle to have a functional backline

 

[Riptide]

But either way, all NFL head coaches with that driven, winning mentality, have served as an understudy.

No, they haven't. They may have served an apprenticeship as an assistant coach but there were no guarantees of the job is yours. They may even been head coach of a strong college program. Again, I cannot think of a single instance in which a successful head coach of a winning, professional program has moved to another franchise team to serve as understudy. Many coaches have been fired and then secured employment as assistant's elsewhere but that's because they couldn't get a head coaching gig.

 

[Riptide]

Lets' take a look at a few of these $billion dollar professional sports and see if they've hired any coaches with that driven, winning mentality, starting as an understudy:-

• Basketball: Phil Jackson was an ex-NBA player who did a year or three coaching in Puerto Rico before being hired by the Chicago Bulls in 1987 as an assistant coach under Doug Collins. He coached Michael Jordan and a rookie Scottie Pippen in the NBA playoffs with Walsh. -- Promoted to head coach of the Bulls in 1989 and won 6 NBA titles in nine years at the club, including the 1996-1998 "three-peat". So? He was an assistant who proved himself as an assistant, showed promise and was then promoted to the head job.

• Basketball: Pat Riley was an ex-NBA player working in the media when hired by the Los Angeles Lakers in 1980 as assistant to new coach Paul Westhead, after Jack McKinney suffered a near-fatal bike accident. Was part of the NBA title win by LA that year. -- Riley was promoted to Head Coach of the Lakers in 1981. Won 5 NBA titles over the next nine years, including back-to-back in 1987 and 1988. Again, hired as an assistant.. not hired with the understanding "Psssst, we are going to make you head coach in a few years"

• NFL: George Seifert was a college-level football coach with a 6-18 record when hired by the San Francisco 49ers in 1980 as an assistant under Bill Walsh. Won Super Bowls with Walsh in 1981, 1984 and 1988. -- Promoted to head coach of the 49ers in 1989 and won two Super Bowls (1989 and 1994) within the next five years. Again, you dont seem to get it. Another example of a an assistant movinbg up to head coach.

• Baseball: Tommy Lasorda was a retired baseball player who managed a team in Venezuala and had four good years in the minor-leagues when hired as the Third Base Coach by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1973 under Walter Alston. Won a divisional title under Alston in 1974. -- Promoted to Dodgers Manager in 1976 and won four league pennants, eight division titles, and two World Series championships (1982 and 1988) in his 20 year career. Again.

• Soccer: Louis van Gaal was retired football player with two years assistant-coaching experience at a smaller club when hired by AFC Ajax in 1988 as an assistant to Leo Beenhakker. He was involved in the league championship win finishing ahead of PSV Einhoven in 1990 (although Dutch hooligans kept them out of UEFA Cup). -- Promoted to Ajax Manager in 1991 and won three more league titles over the next five years, plus a UEFA Cup in 1992, Euro Champions League title in 1995, and a UEFA Super cup in 1995.

If your point is that some winning programs hire from within, we can agree. It has worked for others where assistant assume the head coaching role Leicester with Cockerill and it's possible that Larkham may even assume the reins once White moves on. But that's not my primary point, is it?

My argument is that the Red just hired someone who hasn't won as a head coach.. anywhere. In fact, he has only won 7 out of 26 games in which he was a head coach. I can understand the argument as to why the Reds might have looked to someone like Taylor for example, but when you look outside the franchise, you hire the best you can find. Graham is not the best they could have found, and he's not even close.

 

[Riptide]

The Reds wanted a coach that would work under Link. Don't think they even really advertised the job too widely (news of it would have got out).

More highly-credentialed coaches would not be accept not being totally in charge.

That's why they hired Woody. Less seniority.

Less capable, not just less credentialed. He hasn't shown he can win as a head coach anywhere. He has had an opportunity and he's not gone that well. Let RG win somewhere else as a head coach before he is handed the reins to a premier S15 franchise.

No proven coach would work as an understudy. Hire the best available from outside the franchise, even someone is an assistant elsewhere who really seems like he has the chops to lead the franchise going forward, but NOT someone who has only failed as a head coach.

 

[kiap]

They may have served an apprenticeship as an assistant coach but there were no guarantees of the job is yours.

And there's your misunderstanding.

Succession planing is about building "bench strength" in an organisation. Of course there are no guaranteed jobs, that would be naive beyond belief. It's about preparing internal people to fill the lead positions. Even in the less flamboyant business world, only a proportion of those being mentored and developed get to the top. But virtually all who do make it have been assisted along the way, within the organisation or in a similar one.

The Reds don't provide a guaranteed promotion. Graham could be passed over in 18 months time. A more credentialed coach could be put in over his head. He could be boned. Or he could be accumulating wins and be given a shot at being in charge. The decision remains with the board of the organisation. Always.

 

[ChargerWA]

I just hope for the sake of Australian rugby he shows more recruiting nous at the Red's than he did at the Force.

 

[waratahjesus]

So if the reds have success under Graham, is it Grahams coaching success, links management success, or due to both if them?

 

[kiap]

Kiap not sure what your point is: who is the understudy who goes on to greatness in this scenario? Graham? a tad early to predict that - and thats not saying it wont happen

The point is this idea that "succession planning does not take place" in pro sports is a bucket of dribbly brown ones.

Yeah, if Graham was anywhere close to greatness then he wouldn't have been boned by the Force, and he wouldn't be working for McKenzie at the Reds...

The position of the Reds is that Link is still accountable to the board for the results of the team. Presumably where duties are delegated to Graham, and insofar as he is successful with them, Graham gets a share of credit.