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Repeated Trauma Encephalopathy

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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Last night I saw the 7.30 report on the ABC. Very very interesting report on RTE. Perhaps the most worrying thing is that it is becoming apparent that the condition is becoming manifest in players who have never had a recognised concussion.

Given the recent issues surrounding Berrick Barnes and TPN and the historical retirement of Elton Flately I would suggest Rugby need to act proactively to protect players. Personally I would suggest that there be a mandatory rest period if there is any diagnosed concussion and better training for coaches and support staff in recognising it.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Yep, that's where I first heard about it. I would expect to see greater mandatory recovery periods in the future if the research is conclusive.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I would have thought the emerging, conclusive confirmation of the condition in non-concussive cases would be enough to start far more stringent mandatory recovery periods in concussive cases, and routine applicable neurological tests in all professional hard-contact sports' players playing more than XX weeks per year (or such like parameter). And, surely, sadly for him, BB should be having a lengthy period off now after, what, 2 serious recent concussions quite close together, and one 'less serious' just last Saturday. Yet he's off to SA! The modern standard for managing concussion seems less stringent than when I played rugby at school when it was from memory 6 weeks at least no play after even a mild concussion (I recall all the complaints over this school dictum from the better rugby players when they were out for these enforced periods.)
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
When I was playing even at the very low level I was at it was mandatory for 4 weeks off. I am left astounded that we have regressed somewhat to basic cognitive testing in assessing many players fitness to return.

On another level I wonder what duty of care Referees could have if they are aware that a player has been knocked out yet is deemed fit to continue or asures the ref that he is. We have all seen players knocked senseless get up spend 10 on the side line for "blood" and then come back. This clearly has to stop and at least at Test/Super level the match doctor/officials have to say I believe he was knocked out/is conncussed and will take no further part in this game.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I seem to recall there being a mandatory rest period for concussion when I played also. I think it was in the order of 2-3 weeks.
 

rugbysmartarse

Alan Cameron (40)
Since triple j still play songs with explicit lyrics, I am occasionally required to switch to something else. One instance recently the missus switched to MMM where geyer and johns were talking about concussions - not sure if anyone heard it it but I found it fascinating. What happens in league is that pre season every player is timed as he does a test like a memory cards test or pattern matching etc. If that player is concussed during the season the test is readministered and if the time is equal to or better than the pre season time, they are cleared to play. The twist is that players encourage each other to throw the test pre season so that if they get concussed they have a better chance of being cleared to play the next week.

Not saying this happens in union, but johns said it was pretty much standard practice in league
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
In my day the standard procedure was - get knocked out - stand up - throw up - play on - get drunk.

Luckily I managed to avoid serious concussion myself. As a centre, maybe I didn't go quite as hard as Stirling Mortlock.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Since triple j still play songs with explicit lyrics, I am occasionally required to switch to something else. One instance recently the missus switched to MMM where geyer and johns were talking about concussions - not sure if anyone heard it it but I found it fascinating. What happens in league is that pre season every player is timed as he does a test like a memory cards test or pattern matching etc. If that player is concussed during the season the test is readministered and if the time is equal to or better than the pre season time, they are cleared to play. The twist is that players encourage each other to throw the test pre season so that if they get concussed they have a better chance of being cleared to play the next week.

Not saying this happens in union, but johns said it was pretty much standard practice in league

Peyton Manning (NFL quarterback) recently admitted to doing exactly that ... then took it back and said he was just joking.
 

Cat_A

Arch Winning (36)
There are 3 aspects to this debate that particularly interested me (although I'm so any of these issues are being discussed in a knowledgeable forum)

1. The research that was quoted in the program stated that even in the absence of a concussive event neuropathologies were being seen as a result of repeated "low level" collisions. In other words, a player didn't necessarily need to be concussed (as we understand the symptoms) to develop neurological impairment.

2. The clinical diagnosis of concussion is actually incredibly complex, and many of the mechanisms are poorly understood (primarily because detailed study of the brain tissue itself is only possible post-mortem. We can look at MRIs and CTs etc, but actual tissue examination isn't possible, but I digress). Diagnosis of the severity of a concussion isn't something a GP has any specialist training or experience in, so people who present at their usual doctor are usually diagnosed on the mechanics of the incident rather than the residual effects (if any) of the incident. To make matters worse, research is now saying that on-the-field amnesia, not loss of consciousness, is a better predictor of after-injury symptom severity and possible residual damage. In other words, the player who gets a knock early that doesn't "look" concussed but who avoids the trainer & coaches that game because they can't remember the game and don't want to come off if they are found out, can actually be a bigger problem than a knocked-out player! Loss of consciousness (LOC) is actually only seen in 10% of all concussion cases.

There are some Sports GPs & other doctors trained to use the imPACT (a "computerized neurocognitive assessment tool"), or other similar tool in conjunction with a detailed physical examination to assist in determining a player's ability to return to training. This is basically a computer program that can monitor actualcognitive recovery from a concussion rather than a standard 3 weeks. The player progresses through a series of steps to first resume non-contact training, then contact training, and finally return to play. Because every player is different, standard guidelines of 3 weeks out may be more than enough for some (who only need a week or 2 weeks) and not enough for others (as seems to be the case with Barnes' last one)

3. When the ARU had a head injury policy that stipulated that a concussive event required a mandatory 3 weeks out of the game I know of many instances where the player who had a head knock was taken from the field limping: because they left the field with an ankle/knee injury they didn't have to report the concussion and therefore didn't have to miss any games. Or even though it was clear to all and sundry they couldn't walk in a straight line, it would come out in the post-match press conference that Player A twinged his hammy or something - complete crap, but it meant he would be available the next week. Remember, Elton Flatley was playing in the time of the mandatory 3 weeks out after a concussion. As a trainer, I would prefer we didn't go back to having players feel like they need to cover up their injuries or hide from trainers - it's our job (and the referees) to do what we can to make the game safer, and when players fear missing 3 week's play (which is a long time, especially in short schoolboy seasons) I fear that is exactly what would happen.

Combine that with the pressure (silent or otherwise) that would be exerted on a trainer (or other decision-maker) to not say someone was concussed in the last round game of the season where missing 3 weeks means missing all finals and the GF.


My ideal?
Every player find a doctor who has further training in the head-injury field, and use their expertise to determine a protocol for return-to-play. It is so individual and the consequences for getting it wrong are potentially catastrophic! I don't want to this post to talk about what to do with a player who copped a head-knock (message me if you want more info). Rather I wanted to put the 4 corners program in a rugby union context.

Thanks for reading such a long post!
 
D

daz

Guest
(although I'm so any of these issues are being discussed in a knowledgeable forum)

Missing a word there Champ! You are so what? If you are so happy or thrilled, then I am very pleased. If you are so disgusted or sick to your stomach, then I am less so.

:)


Thanks for reading such a long post!

Thanks for posting something worth reading.

My observation is that mandatory time off is key here. We all know that if you leave it up to the player, he will tell you he is fine. He just has trouble standing up at the moment. Or seeing anything. Or finding his arse.

I think the problems in the NFL will start a new trend. In todays duty of care world, I can see the near future where someone like Barnes potentially being told to retire.

All it will take is a former player suing the pants off his old team 20 years down the track when he is diagnosed with a brain-related illness to make the admin wallys get serious about this issue.
 

inthestands

Sydney Middleton (9)
In regards to TPN and Barnes, I must say the Tahs have been good. Barnes has had two breaks, and TPN has had one too.

I think the mandatory stand-down is in amateur rugby only, or unless a neurologist has cleared them.

I assume professional sports have easier access to expert head doctors than your local club and hence the mandatory stand-down period becomes less relevant, it is moreso the experts opinion.

The PBS story on 7:30pm was disturbing because of high school football coaches in the States. The win at all costs attitude over there is quite phenomenal. Even when they knew the story was being covered, they were considering putting a kid - on his second concussion of the season - back on the field in the same game if it got tight.

I'm in total agreeance that more needs to be looked at in this area, but I'm no expert by any means and in situations like these am happy to sit back and take the experts' opinion.
 
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Cat_A

Arch Winning (36)
Missing a word there Champ! You are so what? If you are so happy or thrilled, then I am very pleased. If you are so disgusted or sick to your stomach, then I am less so.

You can insert either happy or thrilled in there!


My observation is that mandatory time off is key here. We all know that if you leave it up to the player, he will tell you he is fine. He just has trouble standing up at the moment. Or seeing anything. Or finding his arse.

I think the problems in the NRL (US) will start a new trend. In todays duty of care world, I can see the near future where someone like Barnes potentially being told to retire.

All it will take is a former player suing the pants off his old team 20 years down the track when he is diagnosed with a brain-related illness to make the admin wallys get serious about this issue.

I'm not arguing for mandatory time off, I'm arguing for mandatory assessment by someone qualified & appropriately trained to assess the injury. In my experience and from my observations mandatory time off just makes people try to get around the system somehow.

Rather than getting stuck in on the admin wallys, I'd rather someone actually got serious and fronted up some cash for research in how to make the game safer. I fear imposing arbitrary and unproven rules and regulations about time off would give players, parents etc a false sense of security and actually expose the game to more litigation in the future (eg: "I played rugby for 15 years, followed all your head-injury guidelines and I still have an ABI. Therefore it's your fault"). I'd much prefer such litigation to be taken against a medical insurer than a rugby club or organisation....
 
W

WB3

Guest
In regards to TPN and Barnes, I must say the Tahs have been good. Barnes has had two breaks, and TPN has had one too.

I think the mandatory stand-down is in amateur rugby only, or unless a neurologist has cleared them.

I assume professional sports have easier access to expert head doctors than your local club and hence the mandatory stand-down period becomes less relevant, it is moreso the experts opinion.

The PBS story on 7:30pm was disturbing because of high school football coaches in the States. The win at all costs attitude over there is quite phenomenal. Even when they knew the story was being covered, they were considering putting a kid - on his second concussion of the season - back on the field in the same game if it got tight.

I'm in total agreeance that more needs to be looked at in this area, but I'm no expert by any means and in situations like these am happy to sit back and take the experts' opinion.

I am not so naive.

In the professional arena the mandatory stand down period is not recognised due to financial pressures both on the athlete (match payments etc) and the team (stars draw crowds etc) and the risks of non-selection if players make a habit of not making themselves available.
 

inthestands

Sydney Middleton (9)
I am not so naive.

In the professional arena the mandatory stand down period is not recognised due to financial pressures both on the athlete (match payments etc) and the team (stars draw crowds etc) and the risks of non-selection if players make a habit of not making themselves available.

Might be with some teams, but I think the Tahs have built a track record this season, particularly the resting of Barnes in crucial games which they ended up losing (Blues/Reds).
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
That is crap Stands. TPN and Barnes have both been "rested" and when they played got carted off again before the game was out. Obviously with 20:20 hinsight they have not been managed properly.

TPN has obviously been playing unwell quite a few times and many have lauded his courage, but with head injuries is it courage or just loss of finer cognitive skills and the base drive of the player forcing them on. Remeber we debated a few weeks back about Sharon Flahive appearing to argue with TPN who contined for about fives minutes longer.

I don't think the Tahs can be held up as the modern example of good management in this regard.
 

HodgoBerro

Bill Watson (15)
I missed out on the 4 Corners episode however with what's happened in recent weeks with Berrick & Taf, you question their welfare more now

I guess in sookface's situation he may sit out the sharks game but be back at loftus vs the bulls. As has been said in the media, he has spoken that he's feeling alright considering.

Even with whats happened with Joost VDW it comes to wonder how serious it's becoming. A family friend of my father's died about 2 years ago from the same illness (motor neuron disease) and he was a serious league player in his time.
 
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