Refereeing decisions

[Bullrush]

bruva you and i are looking at different pics thats all i can say..jesus christ

im not arguing theres no contact with the head (Im just saying the footage makes it kinda hard to see) and definitely did't use the Hodge got it worse than Yato argument, like didn't even slightly hint it

No the main difference was Barrett was being a thug, saw a player on the ground cocked his elbow and drove it into someones head

So you posted all the stills to say that you think apart from the video footage and the HIA assessment showing head contact, the stills don't show it as clearly as you would like?!?

 

[Dctarget]

On the 'low-five' issue, I'm not fussed, let Ben enjoy the game - who cares. But it doesn't help the image of impartiality. When you're playing, feeling embattled and that only your team is being reffed, watching the ref celebrate the opposition's try doesn't make you feel much better about it.

 

[Bullrush]

I'd suggest the big difference between the two incidents is that Barrett actually cocked his arm and carried out a textbook shoulder charge, whereas Hodge to me is trying to make a legal tackle, but in his clumsy attempt his shoulder made contact with Yato's head.

Now that may warrant a suspension or not, but I don't think the two incidents are that close.
.

I'm sure Fijians might see it differently. Possibly their best player up till that point was taken out by head shot and the culprit doesn't get any on-field sanction. If Yato was/is concussed and he can't play the next game, that would be a real shame.

edit: Looks like it's confirmed that Yato won't be able to play next match.

 

[Show-n-go]

So you posted all the stills to say that you think apart from the video footage and the HIA assessment showing head contact, the stills don't show it as clearly as you would like?!?

didnt say that either
fuck me give the shitty paraphrasing a rest

 

[Bullrush]

didnt say that either
fuck me give the shitty paraphrasing a rest

Actually, I never said that you made the case that Hodge got it worse. I said twice that Kearns did and that's what actually pissed me off.

You can fuck yourself all you like but what I did was ask what is the argument you are trying to make by posting all the stills and then saying "im not arguing theres no contact with the head"


I'm saying there definitely was contact with the head and you posted the stills to prove that there might have been - not really - but maybe?!?

 

[Show-n-go]

I'm saying there definitely was contact with the head and you posted the stills to prove that there might have been - not really - but maybe?!?

Didnt post it to show contact with the head, i posted it to show there was wrapping with the arms. which there is

tapping out cause this aint going anywhere

 

[barbarian]

I'm sure Fijians might see it differently. Possibly their best player up till that point was taken out by head shot and the culprit doesn't get any on-field sanction. If Yato was/is concussed and he can't play the next game, that would be a real shame.

edit: Looks like it's confirmed that Yato won't be able to play next match.

Of course. That's fine. Not really sure of your point - that there's an alternate way to look at this? Sure.

I'd be frustrated if I was Fijian too, it's never good to see a player go off like that.
.

 

[Bullrush]

Didnt post it to show contact with the head, i posted it to show there was wrapping with the arms. which there is

tapping out cause this aint going anywhere

We are definitely looking at different pics there is no wrapping of arms in the stills you posted and even if he did, it makes no difference at all given he made contact with the head. The 2nd & 3rd stills - the ones that show contact to the head - show Hodge's arm at his side. The last still shows Hodge's hand wrapping Yato's face so maybe that's the one.

I accept your tap sumbission.

 

[Bullrush]

Of course. That's fine. Not really sure of your point - that there's an alternate way to look at this? Sure.

I'd be frustrated if I was Fijian too, it's never good to see a player go off like that.
.

My point is that fans see it differently. You guys call Barrett a thug when I didn't see it like that. Some to think that Hodge was just unlucky. Some Fijian fans probably think he's a thug.

I don't defend Barrett cos even though I don't think he was trying to target Hooper's head, the reality is that he collected it and he paid the punishment. I think the same should be true for Hodge. Whether it was intentional or not, what he did was against the laws of the game and has lead to one of the best players for Fiji missing out on at least a game and a half.

A sanction is deserved just like it was for Barrett.

 

[Bullrush]

https://www.therugbyruckus.com/2019/09/23/the-hodge-tackle/

This is Morgan Turinui's take on the tackle, and I tend to agree - it's not a shoulder charge - he attempted a legal tackle, lost the contact. HE was high and made contact with head - should have been yellow only.

I think this is a better article

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...1cpXVuBbf2UcUjjxr-nx8qSzPmxFDHLrHEeczokTmmbgM

"World Rugby’s tackle directives could not be any clearer about a collision like this. Hodge did not use his arms, his shoulder collided with Yato’s head, and, since they had both been standing up, there were not really any mitigating circumstances.
Dominiko Waqaniburotu, Fiji’s captain, said later he had asked the referee to have the TV match official, Rowan Kitt, take a look at it, and that O’Keeffe reported back that the Englishman had not seen anything. Online, though, one of the men who was involved in developing those new tackle guidelines, the South African sports scientist Ross Tucker, was unequivocal. In his opinion Hodge should have been sent off.
Instead, it was Yato who had to go. He left the field for a head injury assessment on his concussion, which he failed. When he reappeared, it was only so he could lie flat on his back by the side of the field, distraught that it was all over for him. He is certain to miss Fiji’s next game, too, against Uruguay on Wednesday.
Yato had been the best player on the pitch till that point, driving Fiji forward with his hard-charging runs through midfield. He had made three carries, two clean breaks, and beaten two defenders, for 81 metres. Now he was gone, the game slowly began to tilt back Australia’s way. Worse still, it was Hodge who scored the very next try, with a fine flying finish in the corner on the overlap."

 

[Tex]

I think both make good points.

Turinui's points are based on fact; many of Bull's are emotive.

 

[Tex]

Comparisons between Barrett and Farrell and Hodge are senseless and achieve little, but while we're doing it I'll just point out that Barrett charged his shoulder into the unprotected stationary head of an opponent; Hodge executed a live tackle poorly.

 

[Forcefield]

If an on field referee and a TMO can't come to the same conclusion (or even close to it) as the person who developed the framework or other ex refs, that is a problem. I'm all for better head protection in the sport, but I wonder if this hasn't been somewhat rushed especially leading into a World Cup.

 

[Braveheart81]

If an on field referee and a TMO can't come to the same conclusion (or even close to it) as the person who developed the framework or other ex refs, that is a problem. I'm all for better head protection in the sport, but I wonder if this hasn't been somewhat rushed especially leading into a World Cup.

The problem was they didn't really use the framework did they. The TMO has definitely stuffed up here. Between the referee and the TMO they decided it was a legal tackle. It doesn't take the high tackle framework to show that was incorrect.

 

[molman]

I think this is a better article

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...1cpXVuBbf2UcUjjxr-nx8qSzPmxFDHLrHEeczokTmmbgM

Better how? I tend to agree with Tex, that is a rather emotive piece by Bull, just as you could argue Turinui has an obvious Australia bias.

Personally, in the somewhat fussy pictures/clips doing the rounds I'm unclear that his arms are clearly behind the plane at the point of contact and that no wrap occurs as Dr Tucker asserts in Bull's article. I actually suspect that this is why the TMO didn't flag it as an issue at the time. Does he complete the wrap successfully, well maybe not really because he's flying backwards through the air at that point.

You assume that there will be a lot of other camera angles available to the tribunal that will make the specifics of the action/incident clearer. I remember hearing that the TMOs often have a range of cameras/footage that isn't always part of the possible TV broadcast, not to mention likely in a lot higher resolution/frames. I think this even occurred in a Super Rugby game this year where the TMO said I have another camera I can't show you but trust me.

I think it was an unfortunate, clumsy tackle/incident, which happened at speed that really gets lost in slow-mo/freeze frame. Something should have probably occurred at the time. I do worry that there will be an overcorrection and that there is already a body of inconsistency creeping into games around this area.

We'll know the outcome soon enough.

 

[Forcefield]

The problem was they didn't really use the framework did they. The TMO has definitely stuffed up here. Between the referee and the TMO they decided it was a legal tackle. It doesn't take the high tackle framework to show that was incorrect.

You are absolutely correct, but I didn't say they did. Just different sources see the same event a different way. There will be enormous angst (feelings of being hard done by, other teams getting favoured, etc) if it isn't addressed. I don't think this is an individual case either. I see this kind of thing happening all through the tournament. Wonder what will happen with the Read PSdT tackle.

 

[tragic]

We are definitely looking at different pics there is no wrapping of arms in the stills you posted and even if he did, it makes no difference at all given he made contact with the head. The 2nd & 3rd stills - the ones that show contact to the head - show Hodge's arm at his side. The last still shows Hodge's hand wrapping Yato's face so maybe that's the one.

I accept your tap sumbission.

The 2nd and 3rd stills easily show where shoulder made contact to the head - and also show no arms. When you see the visible impact on the video and the player then fails the HIA, trying to argue that there was no contact to the head. And arguing that Hodge got it worse than Yato like Kearns did is just despicable really. Yato was MEDICALLY judge to have got the worst of that collusion.

The big difference between Barrett and Hodge is that Hodge hit a player who is completely upright and still got his head while Barrett hit a player who was bent over and whose head was a lot lower.

I'm not defending Barrett at all but he got a red card and a suspension. Hodge dodged any on-field penalty so he got lucky.

Those stills came from my post in the game thread.
There was no head contact in still 2 but there are clearly arms in contact.
Head contact came in still 3 (I was very careful to take the exact frame when the head contact occurred)
Hodges shoulder did not move between all 3 frames - he braced and Yato ran into it. A shoulder charge requires forward movement of the shoulder.
At most it was a high tackle.
I hadn’t seen Turinuis comments till just now but he is spot on.

 

[Show-n-go]

^^^

They are different stills, I screeenshot those on my phone from kayo, was not easy given the lag when screenshotting

 

[Bullrush]

Those stills came from my post in the game thread.
There was no head contact in still 2 but there are clearly arms in contact.
Head contact came in still 3 (I was very careful to take the exact frame when the head contact occurred)
Hodges shoulder did not move between all 3 frames - he braced and Yato ran into it. A shoulder charge requires forward movement of the shoulder.
At most it was a high tackle.
I hadn’t seen Turinuis comments till just now but he is spot on.

No arms at all. I don't know how to attach the pics but the stills from behind show Hodge's arm doesn't even get close to wrapping. His arm from his shoulder to his elbow, stays tucked in to his body. Even your stills show this. The only difference between what he did and the 'sling' position is that his forearm and hand are pointed towards Yato - they do not wrap at all as again your stills show - rather than across the front of his own body.

They also show the forward movement of the shoulder where he dips it - probably to brace for the impact.

He attempted to make a dominant tackle, (Yato is close to the line and Hodge is not passive or "pulling out" of contact), he had high speed in the tackle and the only reason he doesn't complete the tackle is because Yato is too strong for him. But there is no way there would have been an immediate release or withdraw.

I don't think there is any intent to shoulder charge Yato but Hodge had already been steam rolled at least once and with the pace Yato was coming at, with the line so close, Hodge's technique went out the window and he was just trying to do SOMETHING to stop a try. But it was dangerous and led to the concussion of another player which has robbed Fiji of his services for the 50-60mins left in that game as well as their next one.

If you don't want to take head contact seriously then that's your right but the game has moved the other way. "Attempting a proper tackle" as Turinui puts it is just not good enough when the attempt leaves the ball carrier concussed.

 

[Up the Guts]

Let's just give him a week and let it go. Never knew there could be so much science behind the wrapping of an arm.