Refereeing decisions

[Braveheart81]

Fixed!

In other words - all laws for general play apply until the ball is in touch.

So to conclude my query, when does the ball go into touch? Is it when the ball passes the plane of touch, when it lands outside the field of play making it something the players can judge as being definitely out or when the assistant referee puts their flag up to say the ball is out?

 

[HJ Nelson]

OK. Must not have read it in the IRB rules, but it is mentioned in the 2014 ARU Game Management document
http://www.rugby.com.au/Portals/22/2014 Laws/2014 Game Management Guidelines.pdf
However, the off-side offence has to occur before the ball goes into touch. Without seeing the Stormers incident, I don't know if it is applicable.

OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
Rationale for emphasis
• When the ball is kicked in general play, any player of the kicking team in front of the kicker is offside.
• Offside players who are advancing are cutting down options for counter attack and forcing the receiving team to kick as their first option. Referees must penalise offside players and should no longer rely on continually verbally managing these players because by advancing they have already had an impact on play.
• With a long kick downfield, referees may be able to manage an offside player. The referee should call only once for the player to stop. If the player does not stop immediately (not just slow down), they are liable to penalty.
• With a short or high kick, there will be little or no opportunity for the referee to manage and players must immediately act as per Law or they are liable to penalty.
• Offside players must be dealt with even when the ball looks like it will go into touch because a quick throw may be an option. Once the ball is in touch, offside no longer applies and offside players may move forward toward a lineout or where a quick throw is being attempted

 

[HJ Nelson]

Too slow!

 

[Lindommer]

Bh, the ball's gotta land outside the playing area, or "touch" something/somebody, to be in touch. Good touchies wait until this happens and stick their flag up immediately. A ball ISN'T in touch the moment it passes the plane of touch, it can be blown back in. I made that mistake once and put my flag up, only for the ref to call play on when the ball landed in the field of play.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

I didn't see the Sharks game. However, the reason those penalties are given is because players advance towards the line out before the ball is out, in order to prevent the quick throw - usually players 30m down-field from the kick.

The ball is in touch when it touches a person, an object, or the ground outside the field of play.

 

[Lindommer]

Playing area, B, not field of play. Very important for young refs to learn the difference.

 

[ruckhudson]

Hi All

I ruled a knock on last weekend as per the definition in the law book to many a boo and hiss where a player propelled the ball forward off his hands but then batted back to another player who caught the ball. Is this the correct way to apply the law or is it being too literal of the definition.???
BTW I have already had this discussion with friends and none of them agree with me......Yet....

 

[Braveheart81]

Hi All

I ruled a knock on last weekend as per the definition in the law book to many a boo and hiss where a player propelled the ball forward off his hands but then batted back to another player who caught the ball. Is this the correct way to apply the law or is it being too literal of the definition.???
BTW I have already had this discussion with friends and none of them agree with me..Yet..

Did the ball touch the ground or another player after it was propelled forward? If the player knocked it forward in the air but then hit it backwards it shouldn't be a knock on.

The last touch by the player should be all that is considered if the ball doesn't touch anything in between.

 

[Bullrush]

Hi All

I ruled a knock on last weekend as per the definition in the law book to many a boo and hiss where a player propelled the ball forward off his hands but then batted back to another player who caught the ball. Is this the correct way to apply the law or is it being too literal of the definition.???
BTW I have already had this discussion with friends and none of them agree with me..Yet..

Did the ball hit the ground or another player after he'd knocked it on and before he knocked it back to another player?

If it did, I'd say you were right. if it didn't, I'm with your mates....

 

[Pfitzy]

If it touched an opponent or the ground - knock on.

If it touched his own team mate - forward pass.

If none of the above apply, play on.

 

[ruckhudson]

No but the law states ".... and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Hi All

I ruled a knock on last weekend as per the definition in the law book to many a boo and hiss where a player propelled the ball forward off his hands but then batted back to another player who caught the ball. Is this the correct way to apply the law or is it being too literal of the definition.???
BTW I have already had this discussion with friends and none of them agree with me..Yet..

You are 90% right about the law! But let's look at the other 10%.

Law 11 - definition of a knock on:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

The ball can be re-caught (albeit, slapped backwards) by the attacker before a knock on occurs.

That's OK though. The important part is you had an idea of what the law said in your head, and you ruled on that confidently in your game to both sides. Now you know the full law you can continue doing what you do well, just a tad more accurately!

By the way, this thread is more about super rugby referee decisions on TV than general ref help. I suggest you sign up to this website to ask for community level help http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forum.php .

(not to detract from GAGR, this is a good website of course and you should stay around!)

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes, but if a player knocks the ball forward in the air and then knocks it backwards before it hits anything, it hasn't gone forward.

A knock on only happens once the ball touches something else after travelling forward.

 

[ruckhudson]

I did bring it up in this foram as I observed Johnathon Kaplan mention on a SA ref Q&A forum that that is a law that is not applied well at all levels. And the 10% is correct.

 

[ruckhudson]

sorry the 90% is correct

 

[ruckhudson]

Yes, but if a player knocks the ball forward in the air and then knocks it backwards before it hits anything, it hasn't gone forward.

A knock on only happens once the ball touches something else after travelling forward.

Of course it has gone forward you said so yourself

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

It's true the law could be interpreted both ways, but the way it's ruled from top-down is "play on" - which when in doubt is always the best call!

 

[Braveheart81]

Of course it has gone forward you said so yourself

Sorry, I should have picked my words more carefully.

Should have been:

Yes, but if a player knocks the ball forward in the air and then knocks it backwards before it hits anything, it hasn't been knocked on.

A knock on only happens once the ball touches something else after travelling forward.

 

[ruckhudson]

so why does the law say "..before the original player can catch it."????

 

[Bullrush]

so why does the law say "..before the original player can catch it."????

You can ref it that way if you like but what's the point?! To me, you're being pedantic over semantics. Just let the boys play rugby....