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Refereeing decisions

Rob42

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
"From a spectator point of view - I would like to role of the touch judges, sorry, assistant referees to be clarified. There are times when we have all seen infringements that the there is no way that the ref could have seen for one reason or another. These we have to forgive, they are not gong to see all things all of the time. But in some of these incidents the assistants should have seen what had happened. So why wasn't it pulled up? Did the assistant just not call it, did the asistant just not see it, or did the ref ignore advice from the assistant?

In the NFL, the officials all work as a "crew", with the same group working together for maybe years at a time. I reckon this is something rugby should consider at the elite level. I'm sure some touch judges don't speak up about offside infringements or similar because they're unsure how much input the ref wants - with everything he has to account for at each ruck, he may not want one or two ARs chattering in his ear all the time. But if they worked together for a period of time, I'm sure they could work out a system, with someone to keep an eye on the offside line, for instance. The ARs are far too well qualified to just mark touch and highlight foul play.
 

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
The other thing I would like to see, is if there is one of the more educated amongst us on this forum could look at some of the more contriversial decisions in terms of the law and the application of such. That way we moght all learn something.

I think this is a good idea, there have been some good forum posts in recent weeks looking at the laws and why certain decisions have been made.
 

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
Why didn't you invite local referees down to your training sessions to referee the 'live' aspect of training? They could also give insight into breakdowns etc and what the focuses for the year are going to be.

It's not always possible for them to attend, and the tyranny of distance restricts some from even being available.

Some local referees do attend club sessions during the season, usually before a big game or after they have been pulled up on a particular point of law in a particular game.
 

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
I'm sure some touch judges don't speak up about offside infringements or similar because they're unsure how much input the ref wants - with everything he has to account for at each ruck, he may not want one or two ARs chattering in his ear all the time.

I think you'll find that the majority of referees want as much relevant chat from the AR's as possible. The referee wants to know about anything they may have missed and the purpose of having the comms gear is to communicate with each other.

From my experience, if the AR calls something and the Ref doesn't react to it, it's because he has over-ruled the AR or seen something that the AR didn't. Ultimately the Referee is the sole judge of fact and law.

When you watch the AR's closely during a Super Rugby game, they are talking pretty constantly and at times it is simply to confirm a decision that the referee has made.
 

BPC

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Otherwise anyone criticising referees is welcome to attend the local Foundation course and get qualified to wield the Acme Thunderer to demonstrate how much better they are (or are not as the case is more likely to be).

You have applied the logical fallacy of Burkeism, that is, the assertion that one cannot criticise that which you personally haven't done.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
It's not that you can't criticize the ref if you haven't done it before. It's just pretty meaningless criticism coming from someone who doesn't have any interest in giving it a go themselves. Just like if I called the Red's defence pattern the plan of an incompetent fool who should be fired immediately, it wouldn't mean much coming from someone who's never been a defence coach.

No one is going to stop me giving every super15 team defence advice, but it's fine if they suggest I head down to training on thursday night to have a go in the real world if I'm so keen (because if the erros in pro coaching are so obvious I should climb the ranks in no time)
 

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
An excellent website to have look at is http://www.sareferees.com/, go to the duty ref section where elite panel referees answer fans queries and also the video clips where they discuss changes and nuances in the rules.

It's a good website, possibly something that GAGR might be able to emulate? Andrew Lees, George Ayoub, Steve Walsh would be good points to start. Maybe not a weekly question segment, but something where the referee's look at a particular trend in the game and explain the thought process behind it or the impact of a particular law variation on the game.
 

Nusadan

Chilla Wilson (44)
It's interesting because I have only been reffing for 4 years and when I first started it was all about making a "checklist" for your own sanity for the different aspects of the game. For example here is a quick one about a tackle:

Tackle Happens:
Was it legal?
Did the tackler go to ground?
Did the tackler release?
If he didn't go to ground has he come through the gate?
Has the ball carrier played the ball?
Has the 1st arriving player got his hands on the ball
Do we have a ruck?
Offside lines now apply, where are the defenders standing?
Did the "jackler" get his hands on the ball before the ruck was formed?
Are people using the gate?
Are people staying on their feet?
Anyone using their hands in the ruck?
Is the ball coming out?
How are the offside lines looking?
Am I in the way if I stand here?
Has anyone interferred with the halfback?


I am sure I have missed a couple of things there, but seeing as in 80 minutes of rugby there are roughly 200 tackles that is a lot to go through each time. Nowadays we talk about "pictures" and knowing what a good 'picture' looks like and knowing what each bad 'picture' looks like. It amazingly frees up a lot of brain capacity.

Exactly! I have learnt to think like that along these lines, it can only come from experience.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
An excellent website to have look at is http://www.sareferees.com/, go to the duty ref section where elite panel referees answer fans queries and also the video clips where they discuss changes and nuances in the rules.

good stuff!

I like also that it was not just a 'rubber stamp' of some of the decisions. A penalty was given on the field for a collapsed maul, however they (whoever 'they' are) commented that in fact it should have been a penalty try.

Interesting to boot.
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
Most referees don't have the luxury of having accredited assistant referees, even fewer have electronic communication with their ARs. Unless the referee looks at his/her AR they can often be unaware of scrum infringements, etc. The AR can indicate foul play only with his/her flag.

So the call from the sideline "Hey touchie, what about ....?" often refers to an incident that is unseen by the referee.
 

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
Most referees don't have the luxury of having accredited assistant referees, even fewer have electronic communication with their ARs. Unless the referee looks at his/her AR they can often be unaware of scrum infringements, etc. The AR can indicate foul play only with his/her flag.

So the call from the sideline "Hey touchie, what about ..?" often refers to an incident that is unseen by the referee.

This is true at community rugby level, but at Premier Rugby and above all the AR's and Referee's should be using full comms (usually open mic) which is sensational to use as a referee or AR/TJ.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
I have acquired several DVD's from various Schoolboy Champs games.

There is no Greg Clark et al Commentary (not that that is a bad thing), however the "Soundtrack" is a feed from the ref/AR comms channel.

The Ref/AR's in these games are usually the best of the next generation (the referee equivalent of National Gold Squad/National Academy level).

They appear to use the wireless comms package very effectively, and I have been impressed with their communication with players and Team Captains, and how the AR's and referees worked together as a team to manage the game.

As a game management team, these blokes don't miss much, and it is rather funny to compare the howls from aggrieved spectators (when picked up by the effects mics) about referee decisions with the decisions made by the referee team. Made so much easier with the ability to rewind and watch in slo-mo.

Bottom line: - Video analysis (with the ref comms channel as a soundtrack) is a very effective teaching and mentoring tool for Referee Coaches.

Unfortunately this is really only available at the elite (and up and coming elite) end of the referee spectrum.
 

Eyes and Ears

Bob Davidson (42)
Hugh Jarse, the situation is a little better than this as every NSWRRA referee coach in Sydney, who spread between Grade, Subbies and Colts, has a communication box with a vest with a transmitter and a receiver for the referee coach. It is only a 1 way communication tool (ie the coach can't talk to the ref live) but it aids greatly with referee coaching as communication is a significant part of referee peroformance. Sometimes there is an additional receiver available which allows the comms feed to go to the DVD for lower grade Premier Rugby which helps the referee and ref coach with post game analysis of communication.
Some referee coaches will even ask referees to put the vest on early so that they can listen to any pre-game communication with teams and provide feedback on the messaging and the early establishement of a working relationship with captains and/or teams.
 

Rassie

Trevor Allan (34)
Rugby presents a unique challenge in that the referee is required to make a specific decision about a contested tackle almost 200 times a match. That is one every 30 seconds roughly and in a game he has to make over a 100 decision in a split second.

Different referees have a different sequence or approach to the decision, but they must judge, more or less in order: how the tackler interacts with the tackled player, when the tackle actually occurs, that the tackler releases the tackled player, that the tackled player releases the ball, when the ruck is formed, that players arriving to join the ruck remain on their feet, and that they join from the correct position and do not seal the ball off to prevent the contest. Add in that there are often multiple tacklers, so the referee has to decide who the tackler is, and you appreciate that within half a second, there's a lot to judge. Then the next problem is that many times, four or five things happen more or less simultaneously, and so it really is a judgment call.

Ultimately, what the decision comes down to is a) assigning roles to the involved players, and b) deciding on the order in which events occur every tackle has similar events, and the job of the referee is to sort through the order in which they occur, and if he sees a different order to you or I, then his decision will be accordingly different. And this is precisely what happens to make these decisions so contentious.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Eyes and Ears, My comment about the capability not being available to all, was more in reference to having access to a professional grade, and well positioned Camera to integrate to the comms package that the referee coaches have.

Interesting comment about the one way vs two way communications.

For developing referees, I'm not sure that having two way comms facilities with the Referee Coach during the game is a good thing. Possibly too distracting, and it allows the Referee Coach to referee the game, or for the Referee to rely overly on the Coach as a support crutch. There is always a chance for a quick debrief at 1/2 time to cover the major salient points that the Coach has identified.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Whenever I've refereed a game at training (or in the one match I did) the laws go out the window and I end up calling "nothing there, play on". Players spend more time complaining about my lack of whistle blowing than actually playing rugby.

Same here, Scott. I didn't do many senior games (somehow got stuck at son's junior comp or his school's matches) and encouraging young fellas to look for infringements (future lawyers?) rather than getting on with the game wasn't my go. My lovely spare-rib reckons she only ever heard me say two words when whistling: "play on".
 

Eyes and Ears

Bob Davidson (42)
Hugh Jarse, I understand and I was just saying that referee coaches can and do most of their communication coaching by listening live through the technology, making notes and discussing with the referee after the game. A video is not a necessity but it does help the referee to hear his/her own communication.
Yes, 2 way comms between coach and referee would be problematic unless it was a very specific environment eg a new referee in a trial match.
 

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
I've spoken to some Rugby League Referees here who use two way comms for new referees as an in game coaching tool.

Personally, I think this would be a major distraction but can see the merit of being able to talk to a new referee during breaks in play. Not sure that there would be much value in this in Rugby Union as there are too many decisions to be made in comparison to League.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I think both yellow cards in the Reds v. Bulls match tonight were incorrect. Both were for tip tackles and to be fair once they got the first one wrong thay had to do the same for the second.

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