Reds 2023
- Thread starter RugbyReg
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Tim Horan (67)
1. Sio 2. Asiata 3. Tupou
Suddenly looks a lot better.
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
I'm sure he's probably taking a retirement contract in Japan or the UK, but if he does still have a hope for a world cup spot then QLD is probably the best place for him. Doesn't have to compete with the current wallaby starter in his position for game time and still gets to scrummage with a wallaby tighthead.
Penguin
John Solomon (38)
And Hendrick Tui
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
If his goal is money I don't think any of the Australian sides will be in the conversation
PhilClinton
Mark Loane (55)
Correct. If he is genuinely in Rennie’s 2023 RWC plans, you’d think he would be told that and either given clearance to sign overseas but with assurances the Wallabies will select anyone in form, or be told to stay in Oz if his goal is to play next year at RWC and bail afterwards.
This is the challenge with the Reds and their predominant focus on pathway talent. It's impossible to replace experience, which is an invaluable quality come the business end of the season.
In 2020 (first year post NRC) we lost 461 Super Rugby Caps and replaced them with 0 Super Rugby caps:
Izack Rodda (46 caps) replaced by Ryan Smith (0 caps)
Henry Speight (129) replaced by Suliasi Vunivalu (0)
Harry Hockings (28) replaced by Tuaina Taii Tualima (0)
Isaac Lucas (15) replaced by Isaac Henry (0)
Scott Maloula (13) replaced by Kalani Thomas (0)
Ruan Smith (84) replaced by Zane Nongorr (0)
CFS (81) replaced by Iliaisa Droaese (0)
JP Smith (61) not really replaced.
In 2021 we lost 197 Super Rugby Caps and replaced them with 0:
BPA (55) replaced by George Blake (0)
Moses Sorovi (37) replaced by Spencer Jeans (0)
Bryce Hegarty (105) replaced by Tom Lynagh (0)
In 2022 we are on track to lose at least 204 super rugby caps:
Alex Mafi (61)
LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) (69)
ASY (Angus Scott-Young) (69)
Ilaisa Droaese (5)
That's a net deficit of 862 Super Rugby caps lost and not replaced, acknowledging we don't know what the signing plans are for 2023.
Obviously we build depth as we go, but we're forever playing catch up and it doesn't seem enough to be able to compete at the level we want to.
In 2020 (first year post NRC) we lost 461 Super Rugby Caps and replaced them with 0 Super Rugby caps:
Izack Rodda (46 caps) replaced by Ryan Smith (0 caps)
Henry Speight (129) replaced by Suliasi Vunivalu (0)
Harry Hockings (28) replaced by Tuaina Taii Tualima (0)
Isaac Lucas (15) replaced by Isaac Henry (0)
Scott Maloula (13) replaced by Kalani Thomas (0)
Ruan Smith (84) replaced by Zane Nongorr (0)
CFS (81) replaced by Iliaisa Droaese (0)
JP Smith (61) not really replaced.
In 2021 we lost 197 Super Rugby Caps and replaced them with 0:
BPA (55) replaced by George Blake (0)
Moses Sorovi (37) replaced by Spencer Jeans (0)
Bryce Hegarty (105) replaced by Tom Lynagh (0)
In 2022 we are on track to lose at least 204 super rugby caps:
Alex Mafi (61)
LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) (69)
ASY (Angus Scott-Young) (69)
Ilaisa Droaese (5)
That's a net deficit of 862 Super Rugby caps lost and not replaced, acknowledging we don't know what the signing plans are for 2023.
Obviously we build depth as we go, but we're forever playing catch up and it doesn't seem enough to be able to compete at the level we want to.
Eyes and Ears
Bob Davidson (42)
My vote would be Chris Latham
PhilClinton
Mark Loane (55)
Is this possibly Thorn's biggest downfall.
He is able to foster a strong playing group via grassroots, pathways etc. building a team of players who adhere to his teamwork and playing philosophies. But falls down in the recruitment aspect.
Players no doubt talk to each other across teams, maybe the Thorn approach isn't appealing to established players.
Aside from Vunivalu, who is the biggest recruit the Reds have brought over the last 4 years? JOC (James O'Connor) I guess and he was coming back with hat in hand ready for another shot at redemption, Thorn seemed like the perfect choice to nurture him through that.
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
Which established players have moved between Australian teams in recent years that would have been of benefit to the Reds in terms of experience? (Slipper being the obvious exlusion)
There really isn't a whole lot of inter-state movement for the established stars, if they decide to leave their Australian club they typically head overseas, some occasionally return to a different team but don't really get any swapping between Australian teams.
Inter-state movement seems to exist predominantly in the U20 and wider squad members, which arguably doesn't solve the issue being discussed anyway.
There really isn't a whole lot of inter-state movement for the established stars, if they decide to leave their Australian club they typically head overseas, some occasionally return to a different team but don't really get any swapping between Australian teams.
Inter-state movement seems to exist predominantly in the U20 and wider squad members, which arguably doesn't solve the issue being discussed anyway.
I'm not suggesting its just from within Australia we need to recruit but from 2020 onwards here are experienced Super Rugby (or higher) players that other clubs have added to their squad:
Tetera Faulkner, Izaia Perese, Ruan Smith, Jed Holloway, Geoff Cridge, Ned Hanigan, Rahboni Warren-Yosayaco, Jamie Roberts, Harry Lloyd, Shambeckler Vui, Caderyn Neville, Isaak Fines, Nick White, Rod Ione, Jesse Mogg, CFS, Cam Clark, James Tuttle, Ryan Louwrens, Andrew Deegan, Joe Powell, Andrew Kellaway, Efi Ma'afu, Moses Sorovi, Tom Robertson, Santiago Medrano, Ryan McCauley, Jake McIntyre, Toni Pulu, Izak Rodda, Bayley Kuenzle, Manasa Mataele.
Of those, how many didn't leave Super Rugby and went directly from one team to another?
Faulkner, Lloyd, Vui, Fines, Tuttle, Deegan, Powell, Ma'afu, Sorovi, Robertson, McCauley, Pulu, Kuenzle?
What seems pretty clear is that the Reds could benefit from some more experience in the back half of the squad. On the whole the Reds are a really inexperienced squad but outside of the best XV there's an incredibly low number of Super Rugby caps.
In round 1 (before all the injuries), the bench was Nasser, Hoopert, Nonggorr, Smith, McReight, Jeans, Grealy, Creighton.
Outside of McReight and Hoopert those guys are very close to all being debutants. I'd hazard a guess that beyond that, the remaining members of the squad were almost all uncapped.
Faulkner, Lloyd, Vui, Fines, Tuttle, Deegan, Powell, Ma'afu, Sorovi, Robertson, McCauley, Pulu, Kuenzle?
What seems pretty clear is that the Reds could benefit from some more experience in the back half of the squad. On the whole the Reds are a really inexperienced squad but outside of the best XV there's an incredibly low number of Super Rugby caps.
In round 1 (before all the injuries), the bench was Nasser, Hoopert, Nonggorr, Smith, McReight, Jeans, Grealy, Creighton.
Outside of McReight and Hoopert those guys are very close to all being debutants. I'd hazard a guess that beyond that, the remaining members of the squad were almost all uncapped.
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
Kyle Godwin, Michael Stolberg, Tevita Kuridrani, Sitaleki Timani, James Hanson
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Yep and he was a flop
LeCheese
Greg Davis (50)
Interesting bit of timely insight given the discussion about the bulk of players being from the right side of Tweed
dru
David Wilson (68)
Cool. With just a bit of luck they spent some time sorting the kicking game and a shed load of work so we can present with a least a halfway competent line out. Otherwise it's just media fluff.