Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
I have no horse in the race and I agree with your comments above but he does seem to have a couple of enemies.
Reds 2021
- Thread starter RugbyReg
- Start date
I have no horse in the race and I agree with your comments above but he does seem to have a couple of enemies.
do you genuinely think that's the case? You think they signed him to a 3 year contract with no due diligence? Just ludicrous to think that. He's part of the Harlequins system where Benny Taps is and James Horwill was not too long ago. Billy Millard is there too plus any of Dave Aldred's contacts.
They did massive due diligence on JOC (James O'Connor) including speaking to his current (at the time) coaches. They would've done the same here.
I don't think anyone is expecting him to play Super Rugby as a 17 year old. He isn't even joining the Reds until next year's offseason. As said above, its just patronizing to think he was only signed because of his highlights reel and his surname (Alex Horan isn't capped for QLD by the way). As has been documented on this thread numerous times, QLD Rugby (for numerous reasons) have lost their next generation of flyhalf options that have been coming through the system for a few years - Lucas, Lolesio, Mason, Pasitoa, the Gordons, etc. The cupboard is pretty damn bare from this year's GPS comp.
To have someone, who clearly has some ability of the video is any indication, but with the far superior England academy structure behind him, is a bloody damn site more positive a signing than hoping one of the scholarship holding contract chasers come 'home'.
As for your arbitrary 'perfect age to debut' I'd have expected Carter Gordon to make his Super Rugby debut for us next year - at 20. After we managed him pretty damn perfectly since he left school (and even while at school). We invested in him, and now Melbourne get's the rewards. What makes you think this isn't another investment?
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Nice to hear from you again Reg
I direct you back to the original article as was reported in The Australian and how it was written with a direct reference to the warm fuzzies off a highlight reel that was sent and a signing not long after
Right after I acknowledged the strength of the pathway system he came from I also did say “first hand” due diligence too . There is a difference.
Junior Development Contracts and “signings” are all very nice but they do get recycled quite a bit and initial fanfare for what does have PR value dies away pretty quick and ends up not quite true or real after all (see the hullabaloo with the reported long term Jojo Fifita tie up away from the Evil Empire circa 2 years ago)
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Some context as to why we are so apparently bereft of quality 10’s
Mack Mason. Lol. Can’t believe he was bought up in the mix (above) but apparently James Tuttle being discussed as a Super Rugby possibility in a play making role is .....what was the word ? Oh yeah that’s right ......madness.
Anyway .... Lucas and Loleiso ? Pathways here saw NL as a Centre . Brumbies saw something different and gave him the opportunity which he grasped all the way to becoming a Wallaby 10 while Lucas couldn’t beat out JOC (James O'Connor) as our starting 10 and probably knew his future here in QLD wasn’t as a starting 10 in the short term. So he took his chances elsewhere - he wasn’t mismanaged.
Gordon and Pasitoa - the pathways here chose Gordon in the preferred spot all the way along the journey . The Brumbies took an easy opportunity. FWIW I think Pasitoa was only above average in his 2nd last year and very very plain in his last year at Nudgee. But anyway ....Gordon was heavily feted early and was ordained before time with all types of eagerness in and around him . Meanwhile Will Harrison happened and Noah Loleiso happened and you also have strong veteran options in Too’mua and Hodge at Wallaby 10 - and that’s not even taking into account the mental challenges of Thornball and seeing Lucas not beating out JOC (James O'Connor) and being in behind that in the non-playing list. Forget QLD and the challenges of breaking through here while players like Harrison and Loleiso are leapfrogging you in the bigger picture which was probably where he was always told and expected he’d be or be very close to right now. Hey now Hey now ....
Anyway ........ it’s sort of a bit rich to suggest he also was mismanaged by the Reds.
In this context , if our list managers are to be judged in retrospect with what we can witness right now - it’s probably whiffing on Loleiso when he was right here. None of the other names mentioned haven’t really done dick yet to warrant a chance that they have not yet legitimately earned.
And for all the “oh no” our playmaking cupboard is bare ...... yeah nah. JOC (James O'Connor) is here in the short to mid term , you have veteran and role coverage in Hegarty and Stewart and 2 x young prospects in Lynagh and Annan for now. Ultimately, I’m tipping you will see Harry McLaughlin Phillips name added to that list in another year or so
FOOTNOTE :
Fwiw for all the Gordonphiles.... Mason has the best shot IMO. He’s a really gritty kid and has balls and is a genuine competitor - but I actually had TSS’s Syris Schmidt with a bigger upside. I think he ended up with the Titans.
Mack Mason. Lol. Can’t believe he was bought up in the mix (above) but apparently James Tuttle being discussed as a Super Rugby possibility in a play making role is .....what was the word ? Oh yeah that’s right ......madness.
Anyway .... Lucas and Loleiso ? Pathways here saw NL as a Centre . Brumbies saw something different and gave him the opportunity which he grasped all the way to becoming a Wallaby 10 while Lucas couldn’t beat out JOC (James O'Connor) as our starting 10 and probably knew his future here in QLD wasn’t as a starting 10 in the short term. So he took his chances elsewhere - he wasn’t mismanaged.
Gordon and Pasitoa - the pathways here chose Gordon in the preferred spot all the way along the journey . The Brumbies took an easy opportunity. FWIW I think Pasitoa was only above average in his 2nd last year and very very plain in his last year at Nudgee. But anyway ....Gordon was heavily feted early and was ordained before time with all types of eagerness in and around him . Meanwhile Will Harrison happened and Noah Loleiso happened and you also have strong veteran options in Too’mua and Hodge at Wallaby 10 - and that’s not even taking into account the mental challenges of Thornball and seeing Lucas not beating out JOC (James O'Connor) and being in behind that in the non-playing list. Forget QLD and the challenges of breaking through here while players like Harrison and Loleiso are leapfrogging you in the bigger picture which was probably where he was always told and expected he’d be or be very close to right now. Hey now Hey now ....
Anyway ........ it’s sort of a bit rich to suggest he also was mismanaged by the Reds.
In this context , if our list managers are to be judged in retrospect with what we can witness right now - it’s probably whiffing on Loleiso when he was right here. None of the other names mentioned haven’t really done dick yet to warrant a chance that they have not yet legitimately earned.
And for all the “oh no” our playmaking cupboard is bare ...... yeah nah. JOC (James O'Connor) is here in the short to mid term , you have veteran and role coverage in Hegarty and Stewart and 2 x young prospects in Lynagh and Annan for now. Ultimately, I’m tipping you will see Harry McLaughlin Phillips name added to that list in another year or so
FOOTNOTE :
Fwiw for all the Gordonphiles.... Mason has the best shot IMO. He’s a really gritty kid and has balls and is a genuine competitor - but I actually had TSS’s Syris Schmidt with a bigger upside. I think he ended up with the Titans.
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
The articles also spoke of the Australian coaches in England that that they spoke to about him after receiving the video, and were told he was the genuine product. They didn’t just sign off a video, unlike when they signed Taniela Tupou...
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
Gordon was also offered significantly more money by the Rebels then the Reds, and when you look at the starting XV of both, it’s not hard to see why and how.
I look at the Reds for next year, and I just can’t agree that the squad management is poor, the starting XV is quality. There’s current Wallabies in almost every position except fullback and loose head prop. And behind the starting XV, I’m pretty happy with the depth and maturity with guys like Bryce Hegarty, Angus Scott Young and Alex Mafi coming off the bench.
For all the talk over 5/8, it’s actually not a massive concern for me. I see the biggest issue been loose head prop and reserve tight head prop.
I look at the Reds for next year, and I just can’t agree that the squad management is poor, the starting XV is quality. There’s current Wallabies in almost every position except fullback and loose head prop. And behind the starting XV, I’m pretty happy with the depth and maturity with guys like Bryce Hegarty, Angus Scott Young and Alex Mafi coming off the bench.
For all the talk over 5/8, it’s actually not a massive concern for me. I see the biggest issue been loose head prop and reserve tight head prop.
PhilClinton
Mark Loane (55)
I still think after Australia win the 2023 RWC they should make a documentary about Taniela. He's an Australian sporting pioneer of the social media era. I'm not even kidding, I'd watch the shit out of that story.
Viking
Mark Ella (57)
True about To'omua, but his form has been good.
Yes I think it is, given he has very little experience at 12. Maybe 2 games his whole career at 12, and we expect him to go straight back into wallaby 12? That is very unlikely IMO.
Gervais_rugbylives
Allen Oxlade (6)
My arbitrary age is based on the fact that these boys are still growing both mentally and physically, and I can name numerous players who have been repeatedly injured or made stupid decisions after being thrown into the deep end. He definitely won't be playing at 17, but my point is that if he is signed until 2023, he would be ready to debut towards the end of that period, and I am just trying to figure out if he will be an academy, development player. I wouldn't mind that at all, it's just the thought of a kid being thrown into the squad worries me, maybe see him play QPR against men for a year or 2 to really develop him. Plus, I understand the social media hype that they are trying to build before the season starts, but we have highlights and announcements for him, but none of the other squad members. Also, I never said that he was only poached because of his last name, but I personally have seen better talent get overlooked, so people have got to be kidding themselves if they think those kinds of connections don't set these kids up with a distinct advantage.
Zero_Cool
Arch Winning (36)
On the topic of Hunter, what do we do with our backline -- do we play Hunter / Petiai, or continue with Stewart / Petiai or Stewart Hunter?
Stewart has really been the main organiser of our defense and he has a really versatile skill set, allowing him to play 10, 12 and 15.
Hunter has looked very impressive at 12 for the Wallabies.
Petiai is one of the biggest game breakers in World Rugby.
Without Vunivalu we could have moved Petaia out to the wing, but we'll have Vunivalu and Daugunu on the wings.
What do the Reds do?
Stewart has really been the main organiser of our defense and he has a really versatile skill set, allowing him to play 10, 12 and 15.
Hunter has looked very impressive at 12 for the Wallabies.
Petiai is one of the biggest game breakers in World Rugby.
Without Vunivalu we could have moved Petaia out to the wing, but we'll have Vunivalu and Daugunu on the wings.
What do the Reds do?
Ignoto
Peter Sullivan (51)
What was your stance on Carter Gordon then? Tom Lynagh is 17 going on 18 and will be 18 going on 19 when he joins the Reds. Carter Gordon was signed out of school at the same age.
The Reds did the exact same thing with Carter that your wanting. Put him into a professional environment but let him play QPR to develop. The Reds also did an excellent job with Taniela and his development and outside of Petaia, I would daresay they've demonstrated a pretty good track record of not doing what we did in the past of burning Greene, Lane and McIntyre.
Gervais_rugbylives
Allen Oxlade (6)
I think Carter's development was very well done, and he was able to prove himself against men for 2 QPR seasons, which is how I think all these young blokes should be managed. As I said I am not sure of the type of contract that Tom Lynagh has been offered, so if the plan is to have him play a couple of seasons of QPR and train with the reds academy, I would obviously think that would be a good thing. I find it a bit strange that the Reds are posting social media stuff about him when we don't even know the squad for 2021 yet and he isn't even getting here until the end of next year.
TSR
Andrew Slack (58)
I think the question is whether Stewart will bring the outside backs into the game more.
He may not be a better player, but he may complement the other backs better and help form a better unit.
Zero_Cool
Arch Winning (36)
Yeah, I tend to think Stewart is the better overall fit. Obviously some will say how come Jordie/Hunter can start for the Wallabies but not for the Reds. But I think overall Stewart does a really good job organising our defense and is a better kicker and distributor.
But it's the back row from this year all over again! This time only 2 spots with 3 options.
But it's the back row from this year all over again! This time only 2 spots with 3 options.
The Nomad
Bob Davidson (42)
The best bit is that they are all good options . It’s almost Crusader like with a chance of Wallabies sitting on the bench .
The backline and back row look stacked , just need something as a THP backup for TT and another genuine lock and we are sweet !
liquor box
Peter Sullivan (51)
I had him in the Wallaby team, but then I also had Hamish as Wallaby 15 by this years spring tour with Sorovi at 9
Cancelled Account
Desmond Connor (43)
No vendetta against Cordingley. Just saying that how he handles the media comments needs to be addressed and brought into a professional context. If Cordingley is going to be the spokesperson on behalf of the Reds, don’t write off departing players and use the media as a tool to save face, which is how EVERYONE reads it. We should be keeping the door open to players instead of creating a media frenzy to impose a bad reputation of these departing players. Who knows, we might want Rodda, Hockings, Lucas and Gordon back at some point. Don’t burn bridges.
What I also find ironic is the continued comments about ‘we only wants players here who want to wear the jersey ’, but Cordingley and Thorn have jumped around other clubs. What were their reasons?
EDIT: The article with Genia shouldn’t be claimed as Reds organised. This was organised between Genia and McDermott outside of the Reds.