Reds 2020

[TSR]

We are two years into what everyone thought was a five year experiment. It's way too early to be talking about sacking someone who is clearly rebuilding not only reds rugby but Qld rugby in general.

I’m not looking for him to be sacked at all.

But I did speculate whether his position will come under pressure if we don’t see improvement this year. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t - but I don’t think that’s an unrealistic observation of professional sport.

I am also not sure he has yet demonstrated the tactical nous to be successful as a head coach. Now there may be a whole range of reasons for that, but if can’t tick that box his tenure as a head coach is limited, regardless of whatever other good skills he brings to the table.

 

[Silverado]

Sorry Sully, I don’t agree that it was ever a 5 year experiment, nor should it have been, the QRU simply can’t afford to wait that long for an improvement in results.

I really like Thorn, but if the results at the end of 2020 aren’t at least an improvement on 2019, it’s going to be pretty hard for the QRU to extend him again. No one is saying sack him now, just discussing the expectations of success and KPIs for the upcoming season.

I agree. Thorn has done well to assemble a squad that imho should go close to topping the Oz conference. If they don't make the finals, then his re-signing might be in doubt

 

[TSR]

In any case - I didn’t mean to spark off a wave of negative speculation about Thorn. I’m personally very happy with his work and I’m looking forward to the season.

 

[Bobby Sands]

We are two years into what everyone thought was a five year experiment. It's way too early to be talking about sacking someone who is clearly rebuilding not only reds rugby but Qld rugby in general.

One hundred million percent.

 

[Rugrat]

Fuck me. How'd we get in this situation? By sacking coaches all the time. Your idea to fix it is sack more coaches.

Phil Mooney did a great job with young talent that Link crafted quickly after taking over, into a super rugby winning team. Could Mooney have done the job we will never know? I hope Thorn is given that opportunity but at some point on field results are the only things that matter. A passmark of finals contention this year and minimum semis next year seems reasonable. Being the first season post World Cup most franchises going thru a rebuild with new talent so Reds not the only ones. I think we are in a good position for the next 4 year cycle.

 

[Finsbury Girl]

"

- is Thorn tactically astute enough to design and implement a winning game plan" YES​

"- can he remove the discipline & workrate issues (particularly in defence and on kick chase) which have cost is dearly for a long time now" I don't think this will be an issue this year we have one of the hardest working backrows in the country with super talented blokes pushing for spots.​

"- do we have the game breakers in the halves to match it with the best" We have the best half back in Australia by a country mile​

"- do we have the depth to cope when injuries invariably strike. (Certainly I think we’ve improved considerably in this area and Thorn has been influential). " I think we proved this last year, all of the young blokes performed admirably, we were slightly off the pace, a handful of games were very close & my expectation is that in those same situations this year we have the experience to win these.​

Any calls for Thorn to go are extremely premature.

The hegemony is just beginning.

 

[Adam84]

Interesting comments from Scott Johnson ref the next generation of playmakers in Australia, Lucas may he shaped towards fullback and not flyhalf in 2020.

“Foley is still available and we also have Matt To'omua and James O’Connor who can do the job. But I believe we have a generational change coming at 10. We’ve got Reesjan Pasitoa (the former Nudgee five-eighth who will play for the Brumbies) along with Will Harrison and Ben Donaldson (at the Tahs). And there is Carter Gordon of the Reds.”

But the one player who excites him, at least as far as his defence is concerned, is Isaac Lucas, who has a highly promising season of Super Rugby under his belt for Queensland, besides playing brilliantly at fullback in the Junior Wallabies side that just lost the final of the Under 20 World Cup.

“He reminds me, especially when he plays at fullback, of Leigh Halfpenny (the Wales and British and Irish Lions fullback),” Johnson said.

“He is as brave as anything. Defensively he is fantastic. I can’t say which ones will come through but someone will. That’s the responsibility for us coaches now because we can no longer say we haven’t got the players.”

And a Jason Gilmore’s perspective on the current crop as well:

"Donno's that real silky, play what's in front guy. Zaccy's a really good ball runner and provides that spark with his carry.

"Will Harrison is probably that more traditional steers the ship around flyhalf and Noah's a really confident lad that will back his ability.

"But as a five-eighth, it probably takes you until your mid-20s to really understand your game.

"You only have to look at guys like Sam Green and Jake McIntyre, who are playing really well overseas because they are in their mid-20s and have learnt their craft."

 

[Ignoto]

"- can he remove the discipline & workrate issues (particularly in defence and on kick chase) which have cost is dearly for a long time now" I don't think this will be an issue this year we have one of the hardest working backrows in the country with super talented blokes pushing for spots.​

The Reds (and other Australian teams) have always had hard working backrows. We had several seasons of Quirk, Gill and Schatz. All gifted athletes, all hard workers, but none of them could get us going forward.

Where we've been let down for close to a decade is, having a backrow that is balanced and can bend the line. It's why LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) was picked at 6. So hopefully the other young fellas are able to be the next Kefu/Finegan.

 

[Jets]

Fuck me. How'd we get in this situation? By sacking coaches all the time. Your idea to fix it is sack more coaches.

I disagree Sully. We got in this position by not providing a pathway for other coaches to show their wares. I think that has changed a lot with the NRC and URC where coaches can show their abilities. It's probably still too soon for these guys to step up though. They need to progress through an assistant coach role at Super level first, or have a successful head coach role OS.

I think a fair bit of credit should also go to Hannam for the upturn in QLD rugby. He seems to be doing a good job as CEO with very limited resources. He seems keen to engage with the entire state, something that he would have understood from previous QRU roles. I actually think the limited resources will keep Thorn in the job for a few more years.

 

[Jets]

Gilmore is shaping up as a quality coach. Am I right thought that his coaching has mostly been around junior development and pathways.

I wonder if he’d benefit from a period as an assistant with a senior professional squad first? It’s a question as much as a statement as I’ve never met the guy or had any involvement with him personally. Clearly he’s done a good job in the roles he’s held.

Gillmore was Thorns assistant in his first Super season. Was also Co-coach with Dan McKeller at Souths when they won the premier rugby season. Was Head coach of the first QLD 20's that won the U20 championship, year before Thorn took over and won with a lot of the same guys. He ran the program at Churchie and won a GPS title or two, with a lot of guys in the Reds squad.

I think he's probably two years and a JWC title away from being a Super Rugby Head coach. More realistic would be a transition back into an assistant role with the aim of grooming him into a head coach. From what I've seen one of his biggest strengths is his relationships with the players. Could leak a K Ponga to Ballymore.

The only other guy in Aust rugby who could be looked at in Sampson at the Force. Also think he's a few years off and we need to see how GRR develops and what success the Force have.

Again, I'm hopeful the Reds make the finals this year. I think they have the squad. Then Thorn will have a few more years to push for the title, maybe with one of they guys I've mentioned being an assistant at some stage.

 

[TSR]

My concern with our workrate is not our backrow. Three blokes don’t carry the team and they aren’t the issue on kick chase and it is not only their role to provide support in attack - and those are the two areas I am concerned about when I refer to workrate. Both have been very poor for about 5 yrs.

And my concern with our halves isn’t where they stand in relation to their Australian peers. Nor is it whether the are good player or if they are going to be great future super rugby players. It is where they are at right now and whether they are good enough to compete with the best teams in the comp as a halves combination in 2020.

With regards to tactics - the Reds in 2019 were often let down by there tactical naivety and lack of composure. They are a young team and they’ll get better at this, and I look forward to them doing it. A lot of their 2019 crop will benefit from an extra year under their belt but they still lack guys with seasoned experience of closing out games. Some teams win tight games as a habit and some lose them, and we were definitely in the second group last year. And some players - particularly halves - are very skilled at getting their teams over the line. That is a trait our halves don’t have at the moment.

Criticising the Reds doesn’t automatically mean wanting a change of coach. Nor does speculating on what the future holds if he doesn’t get the results that we hope for. And questioning our halves doesn’t mean I’m not excited to see them have their shot, or that I don’t recognise where they are in their development. People on here clearly think the Reds are on the up, as do I, but that means they have to improve in areas which have held them back.

 

[Adam84]

Agree TSR, the halves combination is the biggest concern, not because the individuals aren’t talented, rather they still lack experience and maturity which is such a critical piece of running a team. And that’s not a fault on those players, experience and maturity in decision making isn’t something they naturally possess, it something earned through game time and exposure.

I think that’s why there might be a fair bit of truth to the JOC (James O'Connor) at flyhalf rumours, or very least I think Bryce Hegarty will be in that role with Lucas occasionally floating into the role from fullback.

 

[Finsbury Girl]

My concern with our workrate is not our backrow. Three blokes don’t carry the team and they aren’t the issue on kick chase and it is not only their role to provide support in attack - and those are the two areas I am concerned about when I refer to workrate. Both have been very poor for about 5 yrs.



And my concern with our halves isn’t where they stand in relation to their Australian peers. Nor is it whether the are good player or if they are going to be great future super rugby players. It is where they are at right now and whether they are good enough to compete with the best teams in the comp as a halves combination in 2020.



With regards to tactics - the Reds in 2019 were often let down by there tactical naivety and lack of composure. They are a young team and they’ll get better at this, and I look forward to them doing it. A lot of their 2019 crop will benefit from an extra year under their belt but they still lack guys with seasoned experience of closing out games. Some teams win tight games as a habit and some lose them, and we were definitely in the second group last year. And some players - particularly halves - are very skilled at getting their teams over the line. That is a trait our halves don’t have at the moment.



Criticising the Reds doesn’t automatically mean wanting a change of coach. Nor does speculating on what the future holds if he doesn’t get the results that we hope for. And questioning our halves doesn’t mean I’m not excited to see them have their shot, or that I don’t recognise where they are in their development. People on here clearly think the Reds are on the up, as do I, but that means they have to improve in areas which have held them back.

The lazy ones have left the building. 1 to 23 this shouldn't be an issue.

 

[PhilClinton]

And my concern with our halves isn’t where they stand in relation to their Australian peers. Nor is it whether the are good player or if they are going to be great future super rugby players. It is where they are at right now and whether they are good enough to compete with the best teams in the comp as a halves combination in 2020.

With regards to tactics - the Reds in 2019 were often let down by there tactical naivety and lack of composure. They are a young team and they’ll get better at this, and I look forward to them doing it. A lot of their 2019 crop will benefit from an extra year under their belt but they still lack guys with seasoned experience of closing out games. Some teams win tight games as a habit and some lose them, and we were definitely in the second group last year. And some players - particularly halves - are very skilled at getting their teams over the line. That is a trait our halves don’t have at the moment.

Were the halves really that inadequate though? Or was the game plan hindering their ability and not working to their strengths at times?

Many would argue that McDermott deserved to be in the Wallabies RWC squad based on his performance, and Hergarty was possibly the most useful and surprising signing in Super Rugby, guiding the team well (without being an attacking wunderkid), and high percentage goal kicking.

 

[Adam84]

Yes game control from the halves at times during 2019 was poor, and at other times they demonstrated good game control and patience like against the Brumbies at Suncorp, one thing is for sure they weren't consistent.
Whether that was the game plan they were playing too, or player decision making is hard for us to know. However, it was a weak point in the Reds games at times. For the Reds to go better in 2020, it is an area that needs to improve.

 

[TSR]

McDermott was generally good I thought. One thing I really like about him is his support game.

I thought Hegarty was patchy. Quite good at times, but at other times struggled. I know he carried an injury for a couple of games which hampered him.

Lucas at 10, if he does in fact play there, is a bit more unknown. Good young prospect with potential to be very good.

 

[gel]

We are two years into what everyone thought was a five year experiment. It's way too early to be talking about sacking someone who is clearly rebuilding not only reds rugby but Qld rugby in general.

A big part of long term appointments is assessments of KPIs at regular intervals and acting on them. Depending on how far off the KPIs the coach or team are determines the level adjustment that is required. That could mean sacking the coach or hiring new ones or whatever.

I have no idea what KPIs that have been set, but I would imagine remaining at the bottom half of the log and perpetual "rebuilding phase" for the foreseeable future isnt one of them.

As to your other post, correlation does not equal causation. It is more likely that historically poor coaching appointments and rubbish talent identification has been responsible for periods of high coach turnover as to just sacking coaches on a whim.

The fact that the reds stuck with Richard F. Graham for so many seasons shows that the qru know how to remain faithful to a coach through lean times.

The problem is that the qru have historically not been an organisation capable of managing their appointments. The level of shitshow they have exhibited in the past is literally beyond belief.

Dunno what they are doing right now, but the assembly of the new coaching outfit looks really good, and Brad Thorns team this year was a lot better this year than last in terms of how they played.

They have to win though, it's unacceptable to keep losing and that needs to be a factor in whether he stays or goes in the near future.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Gillmore was Thorns assistant in his first Super season. Was also Co-coach with Dan McKeller at Souths when they won the premier rugby season. Was Head coach of the first QLD 20's that won the U20 championship, year before Thorn took over and won with a lot of the same guys. He ran the program at Churchie and won a GPS title or two, with a lot of guys in the Reds squad.

I think he's probably two years and a JWC title away from being a Super Rugby Head coach. More realistic would be a transition back into an assistant role with the aim of grooming him into a head coach. From what I've seen one of his biggest strengths is his relationships with the players. Could leak a K Ponga to Ballymore.

The only other guy in Aust rugby who could be looked at in Sampson at the Force. Also think he's a few years off and we need to see how GRR develops and what success the Force have.

Again, I'm hopeful the Reds make the finals this year. I think they have the squad. Then Thorn will have a few more years to push for the title, maybe with one of they guys I've mentioned being an assistant at some stage.

John Mulvihil the ex TSS coach (before Tatsy) and original Force assistant will be very close to a Super gig. He’s currently head coach of Cardiff and was previously coaching in Japan in various roles.

 

[Bobby Sands]

On the 10 situation, Carter Gordon is the obvious long term 10. The game he played against Canberra in the NRC was scintillating. He ghosts through like Bernie and is so silky by hand or by foot.

To mirror Gilmores comments Sam Greene is the biggest missed opportunity. He is playing incredible rugby in Japan.

As a side note I was in the first team that Gilly ever coached. My first year of high school. Not that that is either here nor there!

 

[RugbyReg]

Sam Greene is 25! Not sure if he wants to come back to Australia but its pretty bloody glaring that we are stuck for experienced 10s at the moment and he is still in Japan. Perhaps he wants to play for them?

As for your reference to Gordon being "scintillating" v the Vikings. That's a big stretch in my eyes. He was more than solid, and quite impressive. An excellent prospect that's for sure.