gel
Ken Catchpole (46)
isnt Mick Byrne the wallabies skills trainer?
I meant who is the reds fulltime skills trainer?
Reds 2017
- Thread starter Scrubber2050
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I meant who is the reds fulltime skills trainer?
dru
David Wilson (68)
Ulrich said it.
The forwards aren't going forward. Its not simply attitude and muscle, it's organisation. We hold the pill well but do little.
That missing organisation I would cal an essential part of the game plan.
dru
David Wilson (68)
Look, many of us wondered how the rookie coaching team would go. I know the conversation will irritate those here closer to the Reds than others, but honest. The run of decissions related to coaches has been worthy of discussion. This time round I was not convinced of the heavy involvement of the ARU.
Coaching pathways are important, but simply dropping guys in is not a pathway. So now they learn on the job. Except that we see the possession stat dominate - not new, nor is its ineffectiveness as implemented new.
Quade and Slipper out was always going to be a test. This year for me is about how those coaches develop. No panic at this stage, but we'll be moving slow till they work out a couple of issues. Not at all sure this is simply "accuracy" - definitely think changes or improvements are needed to gameplan/structure.
If we are aping WB systems (suggested earlier this year by the ARU and note Byrne's involvement) then start with the forward pods. Follow up with the rush defence.
On a positive, I thought Vanzati looks the goods for a newcomer.
Coaching pathways are important, but simply dropping guys in is not a pathway. So now they learn on the job. Except that we see the possession stat dominate - not new, nor is its ineffectiveness as implemented new.
Quade and Slipper out was always going to be a test. This year for me is about how those coaches develop. No panic at this stage, but we'll be moving slow till they work out a couple of issues. Not at all sure this is simply "accuracy" - definitely think changes or improvements are needed to gameplan/structure.
If we are aping WB systems (suggested earlier this year by the ARU and note Byrne's involvement) then start with the forward pods. Follow up with the rush defence.
On a positive, I thought Vanzati looks the goods for a newcomer.
Ulrich
Nev Cottrell (35)
In the RSA we follow the same "chuck in a new coach and see how it goes". Last year the most experienced Super Rugby coach was Johan Ackerman and he was in his second year. All other franchises had fresh coaches.
It takes time to develop as a coach as much as it does for a player. Hence our discontent towards Stick for the Boks' backline coach last year having only coached U19 and then the Kings so effectively 2 seasons and that being a 7s player formally. He has been demoted to SA U20 and was requested to help coach the 7s but said he wanted to focus more on the 15s game so kudos to him.
The Reds' coaching staff will get it right. They are starting with the basics I believe and following an interview with Stiles after the Lions game he said his team endeavours to play a similar high-tempo game.
As I am saying to my folk over here. Don't expect the Springboks to be much improved this year. Wait for next year at least.
dru
David Wilson (68)
^^^ Ulrich, yes they have been thrown in, but as far as I can see coaching pathways are a zillion miles ahead in RSA compared to Aus. Guys work through varsity 19s 21s before they hit pro in CC. And then to Super.
We go Premier, Super. Few of our Premier teams would rustle a sweat out of Currie Cup first division. In the Reds case the pathway for the assistants seems to have been Premier, ARU age group role, Super.
I like each of the guys in our coaching team, presentable friendly seeming blokes. Hope they pull it together, for us and them.
We go Premier, Super. Few of our Premier teams would rustle a sweat out of Currie Cup first division. In the Reds case the pathway for the assistants seems to have been Premier, ARU age group role, Super.
I like each of the guys in our coaching team, presentable friendly seeming blokes. Hope they pull it together, for us and them.
Ulrich
Nev Cottrell (35)
I would like to add that I am taking a day off work tomorrow so I can watch my non-biological child play rugby at an away game.
Schools rugby is huge in SA. He is in Grade 3.
I recall being taught run straight and tackle low. Honourable things I suppose, but the game has changed and I'd like to hear the input of the coaches or become a coach myself from next year if possible (as his dad is) so I can emphasise the necessity of core skills (I.E passing the pill - so much lacking in this country, a Springbok, Faf de Klerk, seems to pass head-high at least 50% of the time).
Don't tell me it's just a South African conundrum either, because after looking at this footage it appears we used to play really good rugby so somewhere along the line something went wrong.
Schools rugby is huge in SA. He is in Grade 3.
I recall being taught run straight and tackle low. Honourable things I suppose, but the game has changed and I'd like to hear the input of the coaches or become a coach myself from next year if possible (as his dad is) so I can emphasise the necessity of core skills (I.E passing the pill - so much lacking in this country, a Springbok, Faf de Klerk, seems to pass head-high at least 50% of the time).
Don't tell me it's just a South African conundrum either, because after looking at this footage it appears we used to play really good rugby so somewhere along the line something went wrong.
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
Nothing to see in the footage.
Just big fast men running straight. Passing the ball in front of the support player. Draw and pass with aplomb. Forwards with ball handling skills. A leather ball (I assume) held onto. Swift reaction times. Running onto the pass.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
The biggest single change in the game since those halcyon days has been the vast improvements in defensive systems and tackling ability.
Plus of course that the piggies no longer operate as an eight, bunched up in a tight cohort.
Plenty of room for backline running back then.
Plus of course that the piggies no longer operate as an eight, bunched up in a tight cohort.
Plenty of room for backline running back then.
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
Oh yeah! The old "cover the piggies with a blanket" mantra.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
No4918
John Hipwell (52)
Yes, it has. The players don't have half the basic skills they used to.
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
^^^^^^
Rubbish
Rubbish
T
TOCC
Guest
provide some constructive input scrubber
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
^^^^
Excellent input yourself TOCC
I think the comment was that current players don't have half the skills of those before. Well that is just a laughable statement on it's own.
What ! They only tackle half as good as the oldies, only pass half as good as the oldies, only kick half as good, only catch half as good.
Players today are bigger, fitter, probably faster and dare I say it, more skilled. The game is far more complicated, particularly in the forwards. The refereeing is totally different , cameras are everywhere and from all angles. They actually have TMO's and replays. The forwards actually are all over the field as opposed to being like a school of mullet.
Best I could do
Shit in the ancient days, if cameras were used there would probably only be the referee left on the park. Players would receive multiple Y/C's and reds everywhere.
Excellent input yourself TOCC
I think the comment was that current players don't have half the skills of those before. Well that is just a laughable statement on it's own.
What ! They only tackle half as good as the oldies, only pass half as good as the oldies, only kick half as good, only catch half as good.
Players today are bigger, fitter, probably faster and dare I say it, more skilled. The game is far more complicated, particularly in the forwards. The refereeing is totally different , cameras are everywhere and from all angles. They actually have TMO's and replays. The forwards actually are all over the field as opposed to being like a school of mullet.
Best I could do
Shit in the ancient days, if cameras were used there would probably only be the referee left on the park. Players would receive multiple Y/C's and reds everywhere.
Strewthcobber
Simon Poidevin (60)
AS othrs have said, I reckon it's easily the defensive line speed, and ability for (most!) players to actually undertake an effective tackle is the biggest change.
Have a look at that video (4:15) and look how much time the 10 has to run sideways before passing to the hard runner
He'd be smashed after taking two steps these days.
Have a look at that video (4:15) and look how much time the 10 has to run sideways before passing to the hard runner
He'd be smashed after taking two steps these days.
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Actually TOCC you actually got me thinking on the broad assertion made that skills were "halved" when comparing current players to those of the past eons.
The only major difference I can think of when comparing respective playing groups (of all Australian franchises) is that the current crop has a huge Pacific Islander influence (whether by migration or heritage). Is there an overall skills problem with this group within a group ?
Nowadays we even have Skills Coaches (I think).
Look forward to your comment
The only major difference I can think of when comparing respective playing groups (of all Australian franchises) is that the current crop has a huge Pacific Islander influence (whether by migration or heritage). Is there an overall skills problem with this group within a group ?
Nowadays we even have Skills Coaches (I think).
Look forward to your comment
Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
Skills haven't halved, it's just defenses now imply a rush defense that gives you such little time on the ball, skills are harder to execute. Half the problem with Australia rugby is that we are picking teams and playing like it's 2007 and not 2017
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
All right skills are the same some examples:-
1) With the Old leather ball players could before the change of the rule kick the ball dead from their own 10 metre line, 60+ metres. Now with heaps of time on their hands we rarely see an Australian back clear the halfway line a distance of 28M. That's about half I reckon.
2) Name me two centres in both 12 and 13 who can pass the ball from both hands accurately while moving at more than walking pace AND show me in game proof of it. I can post lots of proof that they can't, even while static passing to a static receiver.
3) Not picking on Quade Cooper but his is the most current example - why after 6 years as a professional player is his defence still an issue with base technique? To assuage the QC (Quade Cooper) defence team I would point to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) who showed last year he has not developed an effective pass (though I can remember him executing once in all his tests (in the last RWC).
Every single game that moron Tim Horan, aided and abetted by the rest of the Foxsports commentators, commentates he begins before the game has started with excuses about how it is "dewy" or humid and there will be sweat on the ball. The NZ teams played in a downpour the other week and dropped less pill.
My rose coloured glasses do make my memories of games past and achievements greater, but when I watch basic techniques like holding the ball to pass, positioning to execute a kick the older guys at the top of the game were just much better than the current guys.
Why is this so, I have postulated that they just do not spend enough time in junior ranks and then through young adulthood building these skills in depth. They don't play enough games at a lower level and so when that pressure comes on the technique just falls apart.
How many modern "professionals" take the approach of Jonny Wilkinson with his place kicking, how many hone their hand eye co-ordination like Bradman with the stump and ball against the water tank?
I've seen it in many other fields that have been "professionalised" with pseudo training and ridiculous KPIs and massive commensurate salaries when these are met, but performance, actual performance declines and individuals have in the organisations I have been involved in have taken the "professional" view of ticking the boxes and doing what is required and when it all turns to shit they just cannot understand why as they have met their KPIs and done what was required every step of the way.
1) With the Old leather ball players could before the change of the rule kick the ball dead from their own 10 metre line, 60+ metres. Now with heaps of time on their hands we rarely see an Australian back clear the halfway line a distance of 28M. That's about half I reckon.
2) Name me two centres in both 12 and 13 who can pass the ball from both hands accurately while moving at more than walking pace AND show me in game proof of it. I can post lots of proof that they can't, even while static passing to a static receiver.
3) Not picking on Quade Cooper but his is the most current example - why after 6 years as a professional player is his defence still an issue with base technique? To assuage the QC (Quade Cooper) defence team I would point to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) who showed last year he has not developed an effective pass (though I can remember him executing once in all his tests (in the last RWC).
Every single game that moron Tim Horan, aided and abetted by the rest of the Foxsports commentators, commentates he begins before the game has started with excuses about how it is "dewy" or humid and there will be sweat on the ball. The NZ teams played in a downpour the other week and dropped less pill.
My rose coloured glasses do make my memories of games past and achievements greater, but when I watch basic techniques like holding the ball to pass, positioning to execute a kick the older guys at the top of the game were just much better than the current guys.
Why is this so, I have postulated that they just do not spend enough time in junior ranks and then through young adulthood building these skills in depth. They don't play enough games at a lower level and so when that pressure comes on the technique just falls apart.
How many modern "professionals" take the approach of Jonny Wilkinson with his place kicking, how many hone their hand eye co-ordination like Bradman with the stump and ball against the water tank?
I've seen it in many other fields that have been "professionalised" with pseudo training and ridiculous KPIs and massive commensurate salaries when these are met, but performance, actual performance declines and individuals have in the organisations I have been involved in have taken the "professional" view of ticking the boxes and doing what is required and when it all turns to shit they just cannot understand why as they have met their KPIs and done what was required every step of the way.
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