Reds 2015

[kiap]

So Knuckles is removing the position shuffling.

Did he also tell Graham to get rid of the undertaker's suit and philosopher's specs? - He seemed more relaxed in the sports gear.

This Knuckles bloke seems to know what he's doing.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Unless he was on an appearance based contract, we've wasted cash which could have been used for someone to actually make a difference this season.

Not necessarily. He is a Japanese import. That means he takes up a roster spot dedicated to Japanese imports only. This is a discretionary spot which some teams choose not to fill.

Now to my knowledge, this would mean he is outside of the salary cap that applies to the 32 man squad, and any money spent on Tui would not be able to be used on anybody else in the 32.

Anybody who is more knowledgeable please correct me if I've interpreted this incorrectly.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Not totally. KH's increasing injury proneness was well known at the Suns. There are already pieces emerging in today's media suggesting he's incurred another injury in Perth and may not be fit for the Chiefs match.

(To which I'd add that I'm yet to see anything in his play to date that even vaguely suggests that he's a player of, for example, the Folau or Tuqiri calibre which he'll need to be to justify his price tag in absolute terms and relatively within the salary cap. Those two aforementioned players showed their enormous potential within their first rugby season.)

This again?

 

[RedsHappy]

This again?

If you think what I have said or argued is wrong - then rebut it.

There's new data gradually emerging re KH (his injuries aside). What we are getting is more and more on-field performances by KH allowing us to make tentative assessments of his real value to the Reds relative to his very high $ cost (to the Reds and ARU).

To comment on what we see of KH (or what we don't should his injury toll mount) ongoing is totally legitimate.

 

[TOCC]

How many games has Karmichael missed with injury?

 

[hammertimethere]

You're right. He is probably the best Japanese player aside from Tanaka. Was worth a shot at no salary cap cost

 

[gel]

I think Hunt is going pretty well for a guy that hasn't played in ages.

He runs great lines (I'm dead serious, watch him run - he knows exactly where to be and when) and has already been instrumental in pretty decent tries.

He is also coming to grips defensively pretty quickly.

I think he'll be worth the coin next year (and after), but agree he hasn't returned value yet. Fact is, he' would never have come to us without the high dollars so I guess that is the price we had to pay to hopefully get someone who will be worth it in a year's time. I would have hoped sooner, but it didn't happen.

An off season to get back to playing weight and he will do fine.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I think Hunt is going pretty well for a guy that hasn't played in ages.

He runs great lines (I'm dead serious, watch him run - he knows exactly where to be and when) and has already been instrumental in pretty decent tries.

He is also coming to grips defensively pretty quickly.

I think he'll be worth the coin next year (and after), but agree he hasn't returned value yet. Fact is, he' would never have come to us without the high dollars so I guess that is the price we had to pay to hopefully get someone who will be worth it in a year's time. I would have hoped sooner, but it didn't happen.

An off season to get back to playing weight and he will do fine.

The problem with common sense, is that it isn't very common.

Well done this man!

 

[RedsHappy]

I think Hunt is going pretty well for a guy that hasn't played in ages.

He runs great lines (I'm dead serious, watch him run - he knows exactly where to be and when) and has already been instrumental in pretty decent tries.

He is also coming to grips defensively pretty quickly.

I think he'll be worth the coin next year (and after), but agree he hasn't returned value yet. Fact is, he' would never have come to us without the high dollars so I guess that is the price we had to pay to hopefully get someone who will be worth it in a year's time. I would have hoped sooner, but it didn't happen.

An off season to get back to playing weight and he will do fine.

gel, I guess that's perhaps where we diverge on this subject.

Let's first recall that the 2014 fanfare that the QRU mounted re KH's signing - partly to pacify fans very disappointed with the RG 2014 season - did not in any way include the rider that 'KH will need a full 2015 season on rugby L plates and then things will be fine later'. Rather, he was promoted to Reds VC (over QC (Quade Cooper) FFS) before he played a single Super game!

All of my sentiment re him and what I have seen so far relates to the raw value-for-money principle. A player on $600-700k pa (including we heard ARU top ups meaning that some other player would not get a top up given the ARU quota) is at the very elite level, only a handful of rugby players earn that type of income in Australia and thus, bar injury, it is entirely appropriate to expect a very high level of consistent rugby performance from them all. The general playing standards bar should set at Folau, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), To'omua, Hooper type levels. OK, maybe not in the new player's first few games, but soon thereafter this would be the reasonable standard of expectation, otherwise why on earth pay that sort of huge money for a player, proven or unproven?

More importantly, I think we sometimes confuse two notions, namely: what is the 'baseline' expectation for an 'average' Super backs player (whose salary might be say $150k pa) and what is the baseline expectation for a player on c.4 x that level of income (with, btw, the attendant impact upon the team salary cap as a whole, which is another important issue).

I'd argue that, using your assessment above, 'running good lines' and 'helping set up the occasional try' and 'providing adequate defence' is simply a 'baseline' requirement of a competent, average Super backs player. That type of contribution on its own is by no means fulfilment of the reasonable expectation of a player on at least 4X the average Aus Super wage. Don't many sound but not elite Australian Super backs do as you outline more or less week in, week out? Don't players like Turner, Inman, Mogg do all this quite regularly (adjusting a bit as relative to their positions)?

Yet somehow it is argued that, in KH's case, 'seeing the base requirements' in action encourages us to believe that KH will soon evolve as an exceptional backs player of a type that in 2016 will surely justify his very high income.

That's where I disagree - I see in the KH so far merely adequate baseline rugby skills (and btw I could add, to balance the assessment, real KH bloopers like flawed chip kicks through etc). I see nothing thus far in KH's play that credibly underpins the view that we have a truly elite Super rugby back in the making.

Nonetheless, for the sake of the Reds, I hope you are right, and that, in 2016, I am found as way too cautious in my reading of KH.

 

[biggsy]

On the sports new the other night RG dissmises claims that Quade wasnt the key for the win over the Force.... This bloke is a nutter...

I thought he scored 22 points and set up the try's...
Kind of glade QC (Quade Cooper) has been injured as there wouldn't be as much pressure on RG if he was fit and playing like he did over the weekend.

Lets hope Quade brings that form to the Chiefs, and I'm sure he will for Genia .

 

[Jets]

I have to agree with RH here. While Hunts form seems to be improving the money spent on him isn't justified yet, and probably never will be. I was very happy when we signed him but 6 or so weeks out for off field stuff and the injuries aren't helping the cause.

I am hopeful he continues to improve but for the money he is on he will have to rip open a couple of games in the not to distant future.

 

[Train Without a Station]

While Hunts form seems to be improving the money spent on him isn't justified yet

That's contracting though. If he exceeds expectations next season is he going to expect his pay to be increased for that season?

Swings and roundabouts. We're getting Turner performing well for unders, some are going to perform less than their salary at times too.

 

[No4918]

On the sports new the other night RG dissmises claims that Quade wasnt the key for the win over the Force.. This bloke is a nutter.

I thought he scored 22 points and set up the try's.
Kind of glade QC (Quade Cooper) has been injured as there wouldn't be as much pressure on RG if he was fit and playing like he did over the weekend.

Lets hope Quade brings that form to the Chiefs, and I'm sure he will for Genia .

Sometimes I feel sorry RG.

 

[Jets]

What do you define as exceeding expectation though? Playing better than this year or playing like someone on $750K? I can see him doing the former but not the latter.

Yeah I understand that some guys on less perform better than those on much more money. I am just saying, with the benefit of hindsight, that the money spent on him has yet to be justified.

 

[gel]

<snip>

Holy wall of text Batman!!! -

I gave you a like not because I agree with you, but for the time and effort you put in for your reply. Made for interesting reading during my lunch break.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'd argue that these "base requirements" aren't what you get out of many of these players on the "base level salary".

 

[emuarse]

Time for a bit of positivity for the Reds 2015 thread.. we've actually won 2 of our last 3 games, and picked up a bonus point in the lost game.and we are now ahead of the Blues, Cheetahs, and the Force on the ladder.
We have QC (Quade Cooper) directing on field operations, and..and a chance to knock out the dreaded Waratahs from the finals.
Its in my blood I'm afraid, I just hate the Waratahs.

 

[Scoey]

If we can beat the Tahs then I'll be happy. If we can somehow spoil their finals hopes, I'll be stoked!

 

[Sully]

Come on guys. The Waratahs or the Brumbies would never do it to us.

 

[Beer Baron]

Not to forget we seem to always lift for the Chiefs.