Reds 2014

[RedsHappy]

That wasn't the point I was making , I was l pointing out that all these coaches had 12-18months In their role as head coach to influence the squad and game plan before they finally did make the finals. RH's comment suggest they made the finals in their first year as coach without the opportunity to shape the team.

Nah. Didn't say that. Of course not all made the finals in their Year 1 seasons, nowhere did I say or even infer that. Nor did I say that these men had no opportunity or need to shape their teams.

Rather, I did argue with the emerging notion I've seen in parts here and in our dumb-headed mainstream media that individual player quality and roster issues were the big or dominant issues in the Reds 2014 poor w-l % and relative decline as a force within the 2014 S15, and these same commentators often make no mention of the calibre or otherwise of how our new head coach and his chosen support coaches are performing given these poor results.

And let's remember, almost uniquely amongst the coaching examples quoted, RG had a full season as a semi-head coach in 2013 to intimately gain knowledge of the Reds playing roster and presumably during that year or the later part of it decide to demote certain players as 2014 approached, promote others, or recruit new ones from outside QLD. If in fact he was totally non-influential or docile in such planning matters, that would be another very worrying statement regarding either himself and/or those above him that picked him for the prestigious position of Reds head coach.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

People are comparing RG to Foley and White and how the teams they have coached have experienced a renaissance under their tutelage without the need for squad turnover... This is very incorrect.

Foley's first year while not very good, gave him time to push out a large amount of players he did not want and change the teams culture by bringing in his saffa contingent, Morahan, Holmes and Prior. Hence this year he is doing much better.

White when he joined the Brumbies was left with a team that had lost most of it's stars such as AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Giteau and realistically experienced one of its biggest player exoduses in its history. White was responsible for brining in Mogg, Fardy, Kuridrani, Aulua and Mowen. Just to name a few. Not to mention the countless other things he was allowed to change around the club outside of rugby.

White now at the Sharks has inherited a team that is yes full of superstars, but also has seen a massive exodus of something like 20 players and while Saffa squads are a different kettle of fish to Aussie squads. White still had to go out and find 20 players to fill their spots.

Graham's situation is similar to Foley's but nothing compared to Whites.

 

[Train Without a Station]

In some regards though Graham's first season is closest to White's in that he was already appointed the day their season ended and had the benefit of a whole off season for preparation and remaining recruitment.

Link and Foley's first years are also similar in that they were appointed well into the off season and therefore were required to sink into the job on the run. Link did it well year 1 whilst Foley did it poorly

 

[Scoey]

White in his first 8 games with the Brumbies: 3rd
4 wins, 3 losses, 1 bye. 3 losing BP's. 5 home games, 2 away. SA Tour not until after Round 8.

Chieka in his first 8 games with the Tahs: 10th.
3 wins, 4 losses, 1 bye. 1 losing BP. 4 games at home, 3 away. SA Tour not until, after Round 8.

Graham in his first 8 games with the Reds: 12th.
3 wins, 5 losses. 3 losing BP's. 4 home games & 4 away games. Including SA Tour.

Read into this what you will but it's clear to me that with 1 extra away games and SA Tour done, Graham is comparable to where Cheika was in his first season. Keep in mind he got 4 points for his bye.

With 1 less home game and one more away game and SA Tour done, Graham he's only 1 win worse off to where White was at the same point.

A number of the Reds losses this year have been games that we could and probably should have won. You can look at this in a glass half full or empty way if you like but at the end of the day, I think a lot of the comments on Graham's success to date, particularly those comparing him to Chieka and White are not really backed up that well when you look at the numbers.

When you look at the numbers for Link, the only difference is that he had one game go in his favour that Graham had go against him. Not a lot in it at all. 1 bombed try (and there's been plenty) scored and Graham would be on par with Link, the apparent saviour of QLD Rugby.

Link in his first 8 games with the Reds:
4 wins, 3 losses, 1 bye. 2 losing BP's. 3 home games & 4 away games. Including SA Tour.

Let's just give Graham the same latitude that the other guys got and see what happens hey?

 

[I like to watch]

In some regards though Graham's first season is closest to White's in that he was already appointed the day their season ended and had the benefit of a whole off season for preparation and remaining recruitment.

Link and Foley's first years are also similar in that they were appointed well into the off season and therefore were required to sink into the job on the run. Link did it well year 1 whilst Foley did it poorly

Foley was appointed within weeks of the season end,if not earlier.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

In some regards though Graham's first season is closest to White's in that he was already appointed the day their season ended and had the benefit of a whole off season for preparation and remaining recruitment.

Link and Foley's first years are also similar in that they were appointed well into the off season and therefore were required to sink into the job on the run. Link did it well year 1 whilst Foley did it poorly

There was no cap space to recruit with. Hence why all people signed, bar turner where pulled from club rugby.
White had oodles of space because big earners such as AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Giteau had been moved along.

 

[TOCC]

Nah. Didn't say that. Of course not all made the finals in their Year 1 seasons, nowhere did I say or even infer that. Nor did I say that these men had no opportunity or need to shape their teams.

Sure, well maybe you'd care to explain this quote below then, I'm not sure what its supposed to allude to then when you say these coaches didn't have the luxury of re-designing their rosters.. When the fact is that they all(except Rennie) had 12-18months as head coach before those years you list.

Witness: Rennie from 2012, Link from 2010, White from 2012 and then again from 2014, Cheika from 2014 (and partly in 2013), Foley from 2014. None of these coaches had the luxury of being able to re-design whole new playing rosters from the outside, rather they had to, and did, rebuild and redirect from the known and largely already given inside.

 

[TOCC]

Test: of the coaches I mentioned and to whom you refer, which have seen their Year 1 teams go backwards in terms of total team excellence and in terms of observed individual player skills?

of the coaches and teams mentioned how many of them had featured in the finals the 3 preceding years..

And, if we are going to compare this years performances to 2013, well lets have a look at the last game the Reds played in 2013..

Boys against men

 

[gel]

I don't think it is correct to just look at the results of the teams once the coach has taken over though.

Surely it is also relevant to see where the team was prior to the coach, so you can tell if the new coach is moving in the right direction.

White came in when the brumbies were god awful, and coming from 4 wins and 11 losses - so there was a lot of ground to be gained - which he did. There were so many problems, that the focus would have been "be less shit" and that would just about have covered it.

Cheika came in when the tahs were god awful and coming from a 4 wins and 12 losses - so there was a lot of ground to be gained - which he did. They were losing the close ones and kicking too much. Under Cheika they started to win the close ones and started to run it more often (too much perhaps).

For both of them, it was possible to see what both were trying to improve and in what direction they were moving towards.

RG is coming into a team that had 10 wins and 4 losses (completely opposite to the other two coaches) and a team that is virtually unchanged. The reds had some issues in 2012 and 2013 but were more than capable of closing out the tight ones. Now they aren't. It is a very stark contrast to how we were before (that choice to go for drop goal still irks me no end).

I am still undecided on RG at this point, as there have been some pretty contentious games and perhaps just some things going the other way might have meant the reds play with more confidence and play differently, but that excuse can only last so long before those few contentious games are in the vast minority.

The big difference I see between him and the other new coaches, it was pretty obvious to identify the positives they were bringing very early on. Unless rugby has suddenly started to reward poor handling, infringements and losing close matches, then i am not sure yet what positive he is bringing to the reds yet. But it is still early days, and maybe it is just a raft of subtle changes that will start to have an effect later.

If there is a confidence problem, it is his job to address it.

If there is a skills problem then it is his job to fix it.

If there is a roster problem, then it is his job to fix it.

If there is a game plan problem, then it is his job to alter it.

The coming weeks will show whether he has "it" or not. I hope so.

 

[tigerland12]

The big difference I see between him and the other new coaches, it was pretty obvious to identify the positives they were bringing very early on. Unless rugby has suddenly started to reward poor handling, infringements and losing close matches, then i am not sure yet what positive he is bringing to the reds yet.

This

 

[kiap]

If there is a roster problem, then it is his job to fix it.

If there is a game plan problem, then it is his job to alter it.

The coming weeks will show whether he has "it" or not. I hope so.

No "ifs" about it. There is a on-going problem and it has been evident for some time. Have a look at some of the extracts below from posts in this thread last year. There's even one of yours there (& my mid-table call is now almost ambitious).

Yes, it's Graham's job to turn it around, but it's not like it suddenly turned to shit four weeks ago. Rather, it's been on the slide for a couple of seasons. Some recent close losses and not being quite good enough and a few adverse decisions - and now here they are. They've gone stale and need to refresh. While they can still improve their table position from here, the pretensions are over.

The Reds look a bit like a mid-table squad for next year. That forward pack looks light on, IMO.

In the backs, players like Ioane and Morahan are departing and (so far) only rookies arriving... Turner is a possible signing who appears unwanted by the Waratahs.....

Some of the younger players are going to have to step it up if they are to have a hope of making the top six.

Indeed. That squad is so low-risk (in terms of new players able to compensate for or fix 2013's serious attacking weaknesses) and utterly unadventurous, can any of us seriously see it beating, for example, the Cru, Bulls, Chiefs and Brumbies into the 2014 top 6?

.....We have, best case, cruised, and worst case declined, since 2011 and no one within the Reds establishment has greatly concerned themselves with anti-complacency innovation .....

..... From a moral point of view, I think it is great that they are sticking with a lot of guys who are constantly injured as it is hardly their fault, but from a business point of view, I think it's insane that they are sticking with a lot of guys who are constantly injured regardless of whether it's their fault or not .....

 

[gel]

Yeah, I was worried last year about this year's injuries - and I guess that's sort of been played out that way. It definitely isn't a 4 week old problem - that's for sure.

As I said above:

The reds had some issues in 2012 and 2013 but were more than capable of closing out the tight ones. Now they aren't. It is a very stark contrast to how we were before (that choice to go for drop goal still irks me no end).

Anyhoo, maybe it is just confidence and the contentious games?????

We'll see.

 

[EatSleepDrinkRuck]

Anyhoo, maybe it is just confidence and the contentious games?????

On my optimistic days I like to think its just a lot of the bad luck of the bounce and the Reds are due for some sweet sweet Karma.

 

[Wilson]

While Graham's performance so far has been less then inspiring, it would be a mistake to turf him without a very good replacement lined up. I'm not really current on the Australian coaches kicking around Europe/Club Rugby but the two best options I see are:

Jim McKay - current wallabies skills coach and former reds skills coach. Was part of the organisation in it's most successful era, excellent skills coach (something that we seem to be lacking), a huge amount of experience and a very successful record - his wallabies coaching profile lists an 80% win rate as coach over 14 seasons BEFORE joining the reds. Ideally for both his development and the success of the wallabies he would stay in his current role until after the world cup.

Michael O'Connor - former 7's coach, left because the new 7's base in Sydney would take him away from his family in QLD too often, which bodes well for the reds signing him. Has a long history in talent identification roles for the ARU and as 7's coach and has a ready made relationship with the 7's squad, a few of whom would have to be looking at a post Olympics switch to 15's. Not sure of his 15's coaching experience though, so straight into head coaching might be a bit of a gamble. If possible it would be great to see him take on an NRC team first but I think Meehan and Stiles might have already been given a QLD team each.

Failing a big turn around in the reds performance these options seem best for the 2016 season. I can't think of anyone available next year who would be worth the upheaval an early change would cause, so it may be best for the Reds to stick it out with Graham for another year, even if he's not the best option long term.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Don't reckon O'Connor would be looked at

there is such a huge difference between the TWO SPORTS

 

[tranquility]

Matt Taylor should be the next coach of the Reds. But not until at-least the end of next season, unless the wheels completely fall off.

 

[Parse]

 

[Ruggo]

If we are outdated, why do we want a coach with a previous affiliation in the coaching team.

Totaui Kefu I would be happy to see given a shot in the job.

 

[I like to watch]

What about Robbie?
I think he is doing some consultancy in Japan,so is reasonably available?

 

[redstragic]

Guys can we wait and see how the play after the bye before lining up a new coach?

Mark my words; in 6 weeks we'll be celebrating how good the 2014 team has become because we'll be safely in the 6.

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