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tranquility
Guest
Was it Wayne Bennett who subscribed to the idea of a 10% turnover of players every year, or something similar? The idea of fresh blood, certainly has merit.
Reds 2014
- Thread starter Troy
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Is part of it a case of other teams improving whilst the Reds have lost players since 2011 and others have regressed or not really improved that much?
Look at their Wallaby representatives and you'd have to say that Holmes, Daley and Ant Fainga'a are probably unlikely to play for the Wallabies again.
Shipperley, Schatz, Harris and Tapuai would probably only play for the Wallabies in 2014 with quite a few injuries. I don't think any of them are close to a test squad if it was picked right now.
I think Hanson and Cooper have been playing very well. Genia, Horwill and Simmons have been playing decently but not setting the world on fire and Saia Fainga'a has been injured for a few weeks but certainly was quite good in the scrum when he came on against the Brumbies. Gill is obviously a big loss.
I really don't think your lineup looks that great on paper anymore. Too many players aren't playing anywhere near their best and other players who were very promising in the last couple of years aren't performing that well.
Pretty much a year ago Quirk was being talked about as a Wallaby bolter. Now I'd have thought that Cottrell and McMahon are having a bigger impact in Super Rugby than he is in most games.
Look at their Wallaby representatives and you'd have to say that Holmes, Daley and Ant Fainga'a are probably unlikely to play for the Wallabies again.
Shipperley, Schatz, Harris and Tapuai would probably only play for the Wallabies in 2014 with quite a few injuries. I don't think any of them are close to a test squad if it was picked right now.
I think Hanson and Cooper have been playing very well. Genia, Horwill and Simmons have been playing decently but not setting the world on fire and Saia Fainga'a has been injured for a few weeks but certainly was quite good in the scrum when he came on against the Brumbies. Gill is obviously a big loss.
I really don't think your lineup looks that great on paper anymore. Too many players aren't playing anywhere near their best and other players who were very promising in the last couple of years aren't performing that well.
Pretty much a year ago Quirk was being talked about as a Wallaby bolter. Now I'd have thought that Cottrell and McMahon are having a bigger impact in Super Rugby than he is in most games.
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Train Without a Station
Guest
But BH the point is that these players have the capability. What's changed? A coach's job is to get his players performing at their best. He can't be blamed for the progression of others making his players no longer rep players, they're regression, he shares some of the blame. Not many good coaches have been poor motivators.
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tranquility
Guest
Perhaps in the instances of the twins, Holmes, Genia, Daley, Shipps, Rod etc 'BraveHeart' is intimating that they might have already peaked. Which is a possibility; but players such as Taps, Shatz, Quirk etc certainly haven't.
I think we are really missing a mature backrower to set the standards and teach the young trio a few shortcuts regarding game nous. Without that their is only one way to learn. The hard way generally takes longer.
I think we are really missing a mature backrower to set the standards and teach the young trio a few shortcuts regarding game nous. Without that their is only one way to learn. The hard way generally takes longer.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
The whole 'need new roster, we have too many 'peaked already' Reds players etc and so we can't get into the Finals as our players are the main problem' emerging theory is a total furphy.
Look at the team's very marked, serious declines in:
- core defence consistently applied
- programmed attack and ensemble back line play with varying running line options into space
- ability to vary a considered game plan in relation to varying types of opposition from match to match
- technique and accuracy at the breakdown and low level of unforced break down penalties
- general passing, offloading and handling skills and consistency thereof under pressure
- general quality and careful attacking use of kicking from hand in open play
- ability to apply competitive pressure consistently over 80 mins vs 'some good periods of play that fade away or commence too late'
- rates of notable skill improvement in individual players through a season
FFS: these are the types of attributes of teams that good head and support coaches train, improve and fix in order to build winning teams! This is what good coaches do!
That's solely why we should pay them, for enlarged rugby qualities that transcend the individual and arise from the totality of the 23.
Witness: Rennie from 2012, Link from 2010, White from 2012 and then again from 2014, Cheika from 2014 (and partly in 2013), Foley from 2014. None of these coaches had the luxury of being able to re-design whole new playing rosters from the outside, rather they had to, and did, rebuild and redirect from the known and largely already given inside.
Is it not now blindingly obvious after 9 S15 rounds that the RG rugby coaching method has made no discernible and sustained improvement in the Reds? Worse, in almost all the above attributes of elite rugby, the Reds are in notable decline, especially when benchmarked against 2011's standards.
Equally, why on earth would this surprise anyone: RG's pre-Reds assignments were undistinguished and from most he quickly sought pastures new after comparatively short stints.
Therefore the stand-out issue, indeed unexplained mystery, remains: why was a coach with RG's dull and uninspiring history hired in the first place when the Reds in early 2012 could have accessed the world's best rugby coaching talent?
The idea articulated when the RG appointment was made was that RG would come in and 'learn the Reds' winning cultural ways and gradually soak up the new dynasty-building modus operandi' that was going to fulfil the 'When Greatness Calls, We Will Respond' mantra of 2012, a mantra that sadly has never even vaguely been lived up to since (unlike btw the Chiefs who spoke much quieter and found the genuinely bigger stick and kept getting better from one title to another).
From 2012, the Reds Establishment suddenly overreached itself and mismanaged the very legacy it sought to propagate. The choice of RG was the first marker of that, the consequences are now becoming both obvious and negatively ominous for the QRU's medium-term plans and income.
The big issue that now looms large over the Ballymore HQ is surely this: will The Reds Establishment make the same grievous error of pride and hubris that the ARU made over and over with Deans where thoughtless and self-serving excuses for the decline in the quality of Wallaby play went on for years solely to protect a vast corporate ego from its worst mistakes. Or will McCall show the same fine qualities of leadership he showed in 2009 and make the hard, fast decision to move RG on from 2015 and thus find a Head Coach deserving of the ample resources at the disposal of Australia's leading rugby State.
Look at the team's very marked, serious declines in:
- core defence consistently applied
- programmed attack and ensemble back line play with varying running line options into space
- ability to vary a considered game plan in relation to varying types of opposition from match to match
- technique and accuracy at the breakdown and low level of unforced break down penalties
- general passing, offloading and handling skills and consistency thereof under pressure
- general quality and careful attacking use of kicking from hand in open play
- ability to apply competitive pressure consistently over 80 mins vs 'some good periods of play that fade away or commence too late'
- rates of notable skill improvement in individual players through a season
FFS: these are the types of attributes of teams that good head and support coaches train, improve and fix in order to build winning teams! This is what good coaches do!
That's solely why we should pay them, for enlarged rugby qualities that transcend the individual and arise from the totality of the 23.
Witness: Rennie from 2012, Link from 2010, White from 2012 and then again from 2014, Cheika from 2014 (and partly in 2013), Foley from 2014. None of these coaches had the luxury of being able to re-design whole new playing rosters from the outside, rather they had to, and did, rebuild and redirect from the known and largely already given inside.
Is it not now blindingly obvious after 9 S15 rounds that the RG rugby coaching method has made no discernible and sustained improvement in the Reds? Worse, in almost all the above attributes of elite rugby, the Reds are in notable decline, especially when benchmarked against 2011's standards.
Equally, why on earth would this surprise anyone: RG's pre-Reds assignments were undistinguished and from most he quickly sought pastures new after comparatively short stints.
Therefore the stand-out issue, indeed unexplained mystery, remains: why was a coach with RG's dull and uninspiring history hired in the first place when the Reds in early 2012 could have accessed the world's best rugby coaching talent?
The idea articulated when the RG appointment was made was that RG would come in and 'learn the Reds' winning cultural ways and gradually soak up the new dynasty-building modus operandi' that was going to fulfil the 'When Greatness Calls, We Will Respond' mantra of 2012, a mantra that sadly has never even vaguely been lived up to since (unlike btw the Chiefs who spoke much quieter and found the genuinely bigger stick and kept getting better from one title to another).
From 2012, the Reds Establishment suddenly overreached itself and mismanaged the very legacy it sought to propagate. The choice of RG was the first marker of that, the consequences are now becoming both obvious and negatively ominous for the QRU's medium-term plans and income.
The big issue that now looms large over the Ballymore HQ is surely this: will The Reds Establishment make the same grievous error of pride and hubris that the ARU made over and over with Deans where thoughtless and self-serving excuses for the decline in the quality of Wallaby play went on for years solely to protect a vast corporate ego from its worst mistakes. Or will McCall show the same fine qualities of leadership he showed in 2009 and make the hard, fast decision to move RG on from 2015 and thus find a Head Coach deserving of the ample resources at the disposal of Australia's leading rugby State.
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TOCC
Guest
This is a confusing statement, because neither Link, White, Cheika or Foley made the finals in their first year at their respective clubs. Cheika and Foley both joined their teams in 2012, White was signed by the Brumbies in April 2011..
David Rennie is the one exception, however he did have influence over the roster and in his first year he was able to sign SBW, Retallick and Cruden.
Parse
Bill Watson (15)
I think you all mad, those of you who believe we don't have the playing roster for RG to succeed with the Reds. Albeit, I do think we need someone to replace Higger's/Samo, although we have a couple of possibles who aren't being given a shot at it..
What has changed is the coaches, and you guys and gals have to remember that for the past 2 seasons the Reds have still managed to produce wins and make the finals without the likes of Cooper/Genia/Horwill for long periods due to injury.
There really is no basis in blaming the team performance on the playing roster. And if people believe a large proportion of the players aren't playing to their best standard, well really, who's fault is that?
What has changed is the coaches, and you guys and gals have to remember that for the past 2 seasons the Reds have still managed to produce wins and make the finals without the likes of Cooper/Genia/Horwill for long periods due to injury.
There really is no basis in blaming the team performance on the playing roster. And if people believe a large proportion of the players aren't playing to their best standard, well really, who's fault is that?
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Train Without a Station
Guest
TOCC, coaches can't solely be judged on making the finals. If a coach takes over a team that finishes 15th, and without any significant signings takes that team to 7th has he failed? Or has he really improved the team 8 places on the ladder and made a large improvement in one season?
Coaches results should be judged on improvements or regressions against the field. In professional sport it you aren't moving forward, you're going backward.
Coaches results should be judged on improvements or regressions against the field. In professional sport it you aren't moving forward, you're going backward.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
It isn't about results. Its about how they are achieved. I preached for years about the Tahs playing dire shite rugby and they scraped into the finals again and again and justified the continuing rubbish that almost (and still could) caused the death of the largest Rugby market in Australia.
Play good rugby of whatever style and it will be successful. See the Bulls a few years ago with their kick and pressure rugby. It worked beautifully while everyone was on song and Habana was at his peak. They didn't progress and people fell away and it died a big death, because it was limited, but whilst it was perfectly executed not many sides could match them.
It is disturbing that the same excuses that Hickey/Foley made to defend the dire play of the Tahs have been used by RG to shore up support for the Reds, the stats show that they aren't too far off etc. Sound familiar? Last weekend I thought the Brumbies went to sleep after the break and let the Reds back into the game and then when panicked into playing again effectively shut the Reds down who really have no attack to speak of despite Cooper.
I look at the Reds over the last few years and see a steady decline (though I will excuse 2012 due to the horrendous injury toll which no team and no coach could deal with). I have harped on about what I see as a lack of planning from the Reds and not just RG to replace key retirements and transfers. It is commendable that they have sought to develop local talent but most really objective observers would say it was inevitable that a Quirk Gill Shatz backrow would struggle simply because they are too similar and whilst toilers Shatz and Quirk are not to my mind standout players.
One other thing has always disturbed me, and that is the manner of the appointment of RG to the position. It cannot be said that there was a wide search for a coach. I am left floundering for the criteria that saw him selected without any comparative application process. What was it? Even the most ardent supporter will struggle to outline anything (apart from his Qld origins) that made him such a key person for this role that a competitive application process could be bypassed.
Play good rugby of whatever style and it will be successful. See the Bulls a few years ago with their kick and pressure rugby. It worked beautifully while everyone was on song and Habana was at his peak. They didn't progress and people fell away and it died a big death, because it was limited, but whilst it was perfectly executed not many sides could match them.
It is disturbing that the same excuses that Hickey/Foley made to defend the dire play of the Tahs have been used by RG to shore up support for the Reds, the stats show that they aren't too far off etc. Sound familiar? Last weekend I thought the Brumbies went to sleep after the break and let the Reds back into the game and then when panicked into playing again effectively shut the Reds down who really have no attack to speak of despite Cooper.
I look at the Reds over the last few years and see a steady decline (though I will excuse 2012 due to the horrendous injury toll which no team and no coach could deal with). I have harped on about what I see as a lack of planning from the Reds and not just RG to replace key retirements and transfers. It is commendable that they have sought to develop local talent but most really objective observers would say it was inevitable that a Quirk Gill Shatz backrow would struggle simply because they are too similar and whilst toilers Shatz and Quirk are not to my mind standout players.
One other thing has always disturbed me, and that is the manner of the appointment of RG to the position. It cannot be said that there was a wide search for a coach. I am left floundering for the criteria that saw him selected without any comparative application process. What was it? Even the most ardent supporter will struggle to outline anything (apart from his Qld origins) that made him such a key person for this role that a competitive application process could be bypassed.
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tranquility
Guest
Many great posts on here, and I can't hope to add to them this second. But I will say one thing in regards to our young backrow. I said that when Gill was 17, he Quirk, and Shatz would make up one of the great QLD backrows. I'm sure I wasn't alone in saying this, but I didn't think it would happen so soon.
Nothing has changed in my eyes, it has all just come a little too quickly.
Nothing has changed in my eyes, it has all just come a little too quickly.
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TOCC
Guest
That wasn't the point I was making , I was l pointing out that all these coaches had 12-18months In their role as head coach to influence the squad and game plan before they finally did make the finals. RH's comment suggest they made the finals in their first year as coach without the opportunity to shape the team.
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TOCC
Guest
And once again Gnostic, its because the other team played badly and in no part due to the Reds performance right?
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Train Without a Station
Guest
Whilst they did not make the finals in year one I recall the reds finished 5th in 2010 and link was appointed very late in the off season. Personally I consider his work 2009/2010 much more integral that 2010/2011 to their success.
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TOCC
Guest
If we track it back even further the upward trajectory started with Phil Mooney in 2008/2009 where the Reds developed their attacking flair..
emuarse
Chilla Wilson (44)
This is the part of the Reds that I find totally frustrating. Where has the attacking flair gone?
From where I sit, I see little attacking flair on the part of the backs and this falls squarely on the shoulders of Attack Coach: Steve Meehan.
There is no innovation on his part; no experimentation with the backs combinations, too much random kicking etc, etc.
What is his past claim to fame. I didn't notice too much ability from him when he was in a coaching role with the Western Force.
Why not start a game with Cooper on the bench for the first half, put Lucas on, with Tapaui at 12 and CFS at 13. If nothing else it will throw the oppositions strategies out the window.There are other options.
Lets face it, we're becoming stale, too easy for our opponents to work us out etc.
And if RG needs a rocket up his arse, then sack Meehan at the end of the season unless he starts to pull a few rabbits out of the hat.
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Think there are 2 or 3 big money players not performing to their $$$$ value or to the absolute success of the team. This becomes demotivating to others - maybe only a per cent or 2 and that can be the difference between winning and losing.
Every team needs a leadership group, one respected not only from a mentoring perspective, but their - experience to lead others, who play to a high performance level - that is what makes young blokes strive to be more than just successful at S15 level and become the best footballers they can.
They call it CULTURE - it can be fantastic or shithouse but is only measured by degree and generally performance.
Not sure of RG ATM - time will tell and fairly quickly I imagine
Every team needs a leadership group, one respected not only from a mentoring perspective, but their - experience to lead others, who play to a high performance level - that is what makes young blokes strive to be more than just successful at S15 level and become the best footballers they can.
They call it CULTURE - it can be fantastic or shithouse but is only measured by degree and generally performance.
Not sure of RG ATM - time will tell and fairly quickly I imagine
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Train Without a Station
Guest
TOCC I completely agree that the Reds attack was initially developed under Mooney and that he deserves a good chunk of credit for their resurgence due to that. But at the same time, that attacking flair still took us to 2nd last in 2009.
Scrubber you make a good point also. High paid players not performing to their remuneration level. Link did not have this demotivating factor to deal with because at the time Genia was really the only quality test performer and was yet to re-sign anyway.
Since 2011 though a number of our championship heroes have been re-signed on upgraded deals and unfortunately they are performing closer to their 2009 levels than 2011 levels.
Scrubber you make a good point also. High paid players not performing to their remuneration level. Link did not have this demotivating factor to deal with because at the time Genia was really the only quality test performer and was yet to re-sign anyway.
Since 2011 though a number of our championship heroes have been re-signed on upgraded deals and unfortunately they are performing closer to their 2009 levels than 2011 levels.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
TWAS responds to this really well in #3110 above. It's about demonstrable improvements in total team achievement and tactical capability, execution excellence, etc, and it's about individual player growth and skill development. Getting into Finals or winning a title are built from such things, and certainly that can take more than one season, and typically does.
Under RG's 9 rounds in 2014 we have seen zero improvements (except perhaps marginally via Stiles in set pieces but certainly not in loose forwards open play, that's gone backwards), and we've clearly seen much relative decline.
My point being that this state of non-progress is uncharacteristic of what happens when genuinely good coaches get hold of a team, they actually make notable incremental improvements quite fast, often within their first 5-10 S15 rounds as head coach. Those improvements are then built upon and their team's w-l % steadily improves.
Test: of the coaches I mentioned and to whom you refer, which have seen their Year 1 teams go backwards in terms of total team excellence and in terms of observed individual player skills?
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