Rebels v Brumbies Super Rugby 2015 Rnd 3

[Quick Hands]

I've been a rabid critic of Walsh for a long time, but that's just tinfoil stuff.....

As have I, last night was the worst he's been for quite a while. Trouble is, every so often he pulls out a really good display, which his fan club hang their hats on. Some on these threads brook no criticism of his at all, perhaps their silence is some indication of how bad he was last night.

Like the naughty boy - "When he's good, he's very very good and when he's bad he's rotten."

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Only caught the second half. The AloEmile Sio scrum battle was great. Both teams scrummaged really well. I think the brumbies driving maul from a line out is illegal 90% of the time, but so are other teams and it's something either the SANZAR or World Rugby ref committees need to get on top of. I think it ruins the game when you have set pieces that are basically unable to be defended because they're set up illegally.
Stirz, Debrczini, Harris all pretty good, Timani's was quieter than previous but still had good contributions, back row all mucked in. For the brums, good scrum battle, Arnold had a good game, backs pretty sharp in tough conditions. I thought it was a good game despite the mistakes.



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Totally agree. I thought the exact same thing at the Force game on Friday. It's a joke when you've got clean lineout ball taken, the pill spirited to the back of the maul and a bloke at the back grabbing a handful of another bloke's shorts just jogging behind them. It's legalised obstruction. If we're going to allow that then I think we need to allow the defending team to do more to disrupt it. I shouldn't complain, because it's a play that the Force use quite a bit, but it's shit rugby for mine.

 

[Quick Hands]

As I've always understood the laws, and as they appear to say; for a maul to exist, a player from either side must be bound around another player with the ball. It follows from this that if the ball is immediately handed back to support players and a player from BOTH teams haven't been bound to the person with the ball (a) at the same time, and (b) while that person has the ball, then a maul has never existed and the penalties for obstruction apply. It also follows that where a maul never existed, such formation can be legally collapsed as it is not and was never a maul.

A maul begins when a player carrying the ball is held by one or more opponents, and one or more of the ball carrier’s team mates bind on the ball carrier. A maul therefore consists, when it begins, of at least three players, all on their feet; the ball carrier and one player from each team. All the players involved must be caught in or bound to the maul and must be on their feet and moving towards a goal line. Open play has ended.

http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?law=17&i=153

 

[Dumbledore]

It's unlikely the TMO would've changed the outcome.....

On replay it couldn't have been determined that the pass went forward, and going by similar judgements (including one in the Bulls v Sharks game) the try would've been allowed......

You reckon? It looked pretty clearly forward out of the hands to me. I was only using that example as being indicative of his mindset, and that of a lot of refs, - where the the 'better' team gets given greater leniency. Only have to look at the sort of shit McCaw's been getting away with for the last decade to know that there's some truth to it.

In other news I thought Stirzaker had a good game. He puts Debreczeni in better positions than Burgess does. Nice to see him put his body on the line and make the trysaving tackle on Arnold as well.

McMahon's workrate in the second half was staggering. He must be immensely fit - guess all the Sevens paid off. His long term future does look to be at openside though.

 

[Quick Hands]

You reckon? It looked pretty clearly forward out of the hands to me. I was only using that example as being indicative of his mindset, and that of a lot of refs, - where the the 'better' team gets given greater leniency. Only have to look at the sort of shit McCaw's been getting away with for the last decade to know that there's some truth to it.

In other news I thought Stirzaker had a good game. He puts Debreczeni in better positions than Burgess does. Nice to see him put his body on the line and make the trysaving tackle on Arnold as well.

McMahon's workrate in the second half was staggering. He must be immensely fit - guess all the Sevens paid off. His long term future does look to be at openside though.

No doubt the pass was forward from the hands. And I also agree that the perceived better team gets the rub of the green more often than not - anyone who doubts this should prepare themselves for RWC 2015 and watch one of the favoured nations playing a minnow.

On the plus side for you guys, you've got the makings of a pretty good team there. If they can fix up the silly mistakes and sustain their performance for 80 minutes, they'll be hard for anyone to beat.

 

[Slim 293]

No doubt the pass was forward from the hands.

Oh, there's plenty of doubt.........

Watching the replays it looks backwards out of Butler's hands.............

 

[KevinO]

The forward pass was straight in front of me and oztimmy.

I have the match paused on exactly 21 minutes, the ball is half way between Jarrod Butlers hands and Tevita Kuridrani and I am trying to say it a fair flat ball but the lines on the grass tell me its not. Butlers hands don't go backwards and Kuridrani is already on the same line as Butler and the ball is still yet to reach him. I will say it's poor defense from Stirzaker who moves to the blind side that was already covered by Leafa.

Pat Leafa had his worse game ever in Rebels colors, don't think he had a clean bloody catch all night, his line out work is horrible and he seemed just plane lazy.

Worst was the captaincy by Higgenbotham last night, a few bad decisions not to take the points when on offer and did not talk to Walsh enough to sort out the scrum. We where getting penalized when we where going forward and he said nothing.

I really think we need to change one of the halves from the start if we are going to win games, Stirzaker is getting caught with the ball way to much and it seems that he and Jack needs another NRC before they are ready to play together at this level. Would start either Burgo/Jack or Stirzaker/Harris to have an experienced head there to lead the team. At the moment we are relying on Ellison and Harris to organize everything.

 

[Slim 293]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one..........

As I said earlier, Butler's passing action and the lack of definitive camera angles would've made it difficult for the TMO to deny the try............

 

[TOCC]

It might have made it difficult, but most people agree it should have at least been referred to the TMO for him to decide that


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[Quick Hands]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one....

As I said earlier, Butler's passing action and the lack of definitive camera angles would've made it difficult for the TMO to deny the try....

Although Peter Marshall (TMO) was the most competent official involved last night.

 

[Braveheart81]

On another note, Sam Carter's form is disappointingly bad to start the season. The Wallabies need him to be playing much better because he'll almost certainly be at the RWC.

 

[Merrow]

On another note, Sam Carter's form is disappointingly bad to start the season. The Wallabies need him to be playing much better because he'll almost certainly be at the RWC.

Occasionally in attack yes, in defence no. I wouldn't call the 14 tackles he made last night poor.

 

[Braveheart81]

Occasionally in attack yes, in defence no. I wouldn't call the 14 tackles he made last night poor.

I think Arnold has outplayed him in at least two of the three games and he's completely new to Super Rugby.

I'm marking Carter quite harshly because he's expected to be one of the two starting Wallaby locks. I don't think it's unfair to say that he's way down on form compared to what he is capable of.

 

[Dumbledore]

On another note, Sam Carter's form is disappointingly bad to start the season. The Wallabies need him to be playing much better because he'll almost certainly be at the RWC.

I thought he played his usual high-workrate/low-impact game. Just doesn't have the physical impact you'd expect from a guy his size. Moves like a carthorse.

I'm worried about our locks. The incumbents are either injured or average and the next generation coming through are completely untested. It's a really bad situation and it's going to cost us at the WC.

 

[Brumby Runner]

On another note, Sam Carter's form is disappointingly bad to start the season. The Wallabies need him to be playing much better because he'll almost certainly be at the RWC.

Eye of the beholder BH. And again, there are cases that when someone says something, it takes on a life of its own no matter whether it is right or wrong. Example, last week against the Chiefs, most posters were of the opinion that Sam Carter didn't have a good game because he dropped a lot of balls. In fact, Rory Arnold actually dropped more and I think on some occasions the commentators might have called it as being Sam. Just like when Henry Speight made a run they called him Joe Tomane and when it sunk in that they'd made a mistake they then called him Kuridrani. Very dicey listening to the commentators for information.

I do remember Sam dropping a bit of a sitter last night, and he may have dropped another that I don't remember, but it is just going much too far to say that he has had a disappointing start to the season. His work in tight and in defense has again been top notch, and he is now generally getting over the gain line when he has a hit up. Not much wrong with Sam at this stage.

And I would add that together Sam and Arnold look to be the dominant second row at scrum time in each of their three games so far this year.

 

[fatprop]

On another note, Sam Carter's form is disappointingly bad to start the season. The Wallabies need him to be playing much better because he'll almost certainly be at the RWC.

What criterion do you judge a rock lifter?

To me, it is all clean outs, tackling and pushing with ball carrying effectiveness as a bonus

I see Brodie as the prime example

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[Braveheart81]

What criterion do you judge a rock lifter?

To me, it is all clean outs, tackling and pushing with ball carrying effectiveness as a bonus

I see Brodie as the prime example

Involvements and effectiveness.

He's made plenty of tackles but also missed more than he should. He's dropped the ball far too many times for my liking.

He's not making nearly enough run metres. If he can't make run metres at Super Rugby level he's going to make even less at test level.

As I said, I'm judging him fairly harshly because he's one of our two incumbent starting locks. It's a little worrying that Carter is not really standing out so far this season in my opinion and Simmons hasn't played a game yet.

Don't get me wrong, Carter is still one of the better performing Aussie locks, but he needs to be a real standout. He was doing that far more last year than he has in the three games so far this year. Obviously it's early days but this is the weakest part of the Wallabies and we need these guys to improve.

 

[TOCC]

BH without wanting to sound like a broken record, what's the difference between you judging Sam Carter harshly and someone else judging Will Skelton harshly... I actually agree with your sentiment that the test players and potential wallabies should be held to a higher standard since test rugby is exactly that. We need to see a higher standard set at super rugby level if they are to perform well at test level.


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[fatprop]

Don't get me wrong, Carter is still one of the better performing Aussie locks, but he needs to be a real standout. He was doing that far more last year than he has in the three games so far this year. Obviously it's early days but this is the weakest part of the Wallabies and we need these guys to improve.

Carter just has to be effective at doing his job.

I like him as he gets in and just does his work for long minutes, and his work is the unfashionable rock lifting and pushing.

 

[Braveheart81]

BH without wanting to sound like a broken record, what's the difference between you judging Sam Carter harshly and someone else judging Will Skelton harshly. I actually agree with your sentiment that the test players and potential wallabies should be held to a higher standard since test rugby is exactly that. We need to see a higher standard set at super rugby level if they are to perform well at test level.

None whatsoever.

That's what is so concerning.

Skelton seems to be improving on the areas he is weak at (scrummaging and fitness) but in his two games has also been less impactful running the ball and hasn't had the offloads we became accustomed to last year (which is perhaps due to poorer support play as much as anything).

I feel like Carter hasn't improved his ball running yet this season (area of weakness) and has been down on his defence and ruckwork which is his strength.

The number of handling errors he's made is concerning. It's been multiple in all three games.