Tex
Greg Davis (50)
This is a spectacular example of willfully missing the point! It's an absolute howler! The fans are going wild at the sight of this total falcon of an effort!
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This is a spectacular example of willfully missing the point! It's an absolute howler! The fans are going wild at the sight of this total falcon of an effort!
James Pettifer
Jim Clark (26)
GoMelbRebels
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
There was a point?
Tex
Greg Davis (50)
Ahhh yes, the ol' east coast elites. I've heard of them before...
T
TOCC
Guest
That would seem contrary to the point, the point we're making and my opinion is that the movement of players needs to be less restrictive. For the sake of rugby surviving in Australia I'm happy to look past parochial bias.
jimmydubs
Dave Cowper (27)
I meant that by perpetually going broke the rebels have essentially led to the axing of the Force, said axing has now benefited the rebels. Instead of some humility everyone is happy that your burning more cash you don't have and are the road to going down the same financial drain.
As a Reds fan I don't care about the players you've taken, we've got no money to sign any. I'll be happy if we can repay whatever we've borrowed (like we did last time) show up and put in a decent performance. Hopefully run our mgmt off and get someone competent.
I bear the Rebels no ill will, but whenever I see a recovering alcoholic reach for the bottle I say something. If you care enough about your team to want them to be around in 2021 then I thought there'd be some concern over how much your spending, given likely inward cash flows going forward.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Personally I am ok with Rebels scooping up most of Force Squad for simple reason they are weakest team and Force and Rebels always operated at a disadvantage when first came into Super Rugby as new franchise.
If going to let Rebels have a real crack at trying to real grow the game in Melbourne they need a successful team and then hopefully more kids wanting to play rugby in Victoria etc. This way at least they have a chance to do that with the squad they have so can't die wondering to say rugby in Vic would have been better if had better and more successful Super Rugby team. They have got the players to do well..now need to translate that into on field success to see with that if can get off field success.
If going to let Rebels have a real crack at trying to real grow the game in Melbourne they need a successful team and then hopefully more kids wanting to play rugby in Victoria etc. This way at least they have a chance to do that with the squad they have so can't die wondering to say rugby in Vic would have been better if had better and more successful Super Rugby team. They have got the players to do well..now need to translate that into on field success to see with that if can get off field success.
Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
hear, hear.
A refreshingly rational and non parochial comment (in my subjective opinion).
There is some serious levels of salt on this thread and I think everyone needs to relax a little and remember we're all fans of the same game.
I want rugby to be strong first across the board, grass roots to wallabies. Then my super team after. Especially after the absolute shitstorm of 2017, fans need to support rather than try and tear down anyone not them. I think we've had quite enough cannibalism for now.
Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
dru
David Wilson (68)
Hahaha! OK send another one of those, eh? That would be just beaut.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
Where we differ RN is that I think the team would have been stronger had it remained in Perth, and also that there is probably a better chance of a rugby having a long term future in Perth than in Melbourne. The Rebels have a strong roster this year, mainly built on the remnants of last year's Force team. Had the fourth team remained the Force located in Perth, it would arguably be stronger than the current amalgamation in Melbourne. Some of the Force players to go elsewhere or nowhere in 2018 include TPN, Hodgson, Naisarani, Peni, Rona, Grant, Verity-Amm, Ruru, McCalman and quite a few lesser names. Conceivably, these players, or the bulk of them, would have turned out in 2018 for the Force had they survived, and the roster would still have been strengthened by some ex-Rebels looking for a new home. And to cap it off, the WARU and ARU would have had considerable support, financially, from Andrew Forrest. Moreover, there wouldn't then be a smell of suspect back room dealings that is now hanging around the retention of the Rebels. I do not begrudge the players looking to make the best of a poor situation, but I do find it hard to swallow that the black hole that has been the Rebels in Melbourne will now likely continue to drain the game of rugby in Australia to the point of being near insolvent for the foreseeable future.
Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
Brilliant post and exactly how i feel. There is a lot of salt as you say, we are in this together if we want to be around in the long term.
James Pettifer
Jim Clark (26)
Look, I'll have to disagree. Melbourne is much larger than Perth in population. The Storm have shown that a successful non-AFL team can thrive in the Melbourne market. Part of the issue is that RA have no idea how to launch teams in new markets and should really be looking at how the AFL has been much more successful. .
Although the Melbourne team will be stronger this year, it is definitely not just the Force team. Koriobete, Hodge, Niavalu and Mafi would be starters in any of the Australian Super Rugby team. Genia is also another addition to the team. In picking a Rebels starting 15, I'd be picking roughly 7 from the Force recruits, 7 from the 2016 Rebels and Genia.
Your assumption that these Rebels players would have been playing for the Force is purely an assumption. Some of them may not have wanted to go to Perth to live and may have gone overseas or to another Super Rugby team.
In terms of the "black hole of the Rebels", RA need to take a significant amount of responsibility for this. You can't keep on handing out money without having any financial controls around how it is spent. It is pure amateur hour. And I don't believe it is the Rebels that will cause the problems for RA. The problems will come from the dramatically reduced crowds - and yes the Melbourne crowds weren't great last year but the conference winning Brumbies didn't do much better and the largest city in Australia which is a rugby stronghold also had crowds vastly down on historical numbers - as well as reduced ratings which are likely to drive a much reduced broadcast rights.
I've been firmly of the view that SuperRugby is doomed and that SA will go north, but with the disaster that the Pro14 is being for SA (crowds are abysmal, broadcast dollars are much lower than SuperRugby) I'm not as convinced anymore.
Hopefully the Rebels are successful and crowds build up above 15k again but that isn't really going to help much if the other teams are still not able to increase numbers.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
James, I agree that not all of the mentioned Rebels would have moved to Perth had the decision gone the other way. I would have expected someone like Hodge to have moved back to Sydney if the opportunity was there. But on balance, I think the losses in the Force roster are more significant than the losses to the amalgamated side would have been had the Rebels been chopped. Nothing more than my opinion, but that is the way I see it.
The fallacy as I see it about the size of Melbourne is that while it is the bridesmaid of Australian cities in terms of size, the absolute number of rugby supporters in the city doesn't fill me with confidence that rugby will ever be sustainable there. On the other hand, I think that only one of the franchises last year actually had growth in crowd numbers year on year, and that was the Force if I'm not mistaken.
As far as Canberra is concerned, the crowds have been disappointing for a number of years, but in spite of that, the club posted a small profit in 2017, would have had a reasonable profit in 2016 had there not been an expensive sacking that year, and is likely to improve its bottom line again this year. Longer term, it is the ability to run the ship at a profit that will measure the success or otherwise of each of the clubs.
Looking at the history of the Rebels, I have no confidence that they will turn their ship around to achieve a profit given the combination of high wages bill, high administrative overheads and disappointing crowds. I was confident the Force would continue to survive and flourish especially with the backing of Andrew Forrest.
In essence, I am saying that I think Australian rugby would be in a better place had the decision been the other way round.
The fallacy as I see it about the size of Melbourne is that while it is the bridesmaid of Australian cities in terms of size, the absolute number of rugby supporters in the city doesn't fill me with confidence that rugby will ever be sustainable there. On the other hand, I think that only one of the franchises last year actually had growth in crowd numbers year on year, and that was the Force if I'm not mistaken.
As far as Canberra is concerned, the crowds have been disappointing for a number of years, but in spite of that, the club posted a small profit in 2017, would have had a reasonable profit in 2016 had there not been an expensive sacking that year, and is likely to improve its bottom line again this year. Longer term, it is the ability to run the ship at a profit that will measure the success or otherwise of each of the clubs.
Looking at the history of the Rebels, I have no confidence that they will turn their ship around to achieve a profit given the combination of high wages bill, high administrative overheads and disappointing crowds. I was confident the Force would continue to survive and flourish especially with the backing of Andrew Forrest.
In essence, I am saying that I think Australian rugby would be in a better place had the decision been the other way round.
Jimmy_Crouch
Peter Johnson (47)
Success is defined by how it is measured. As a professional sporting team the Melbourne Storm have been extremely successful however that is their only goal. They are top of their food chain and a drain on the resources of other teams/areas as and are not responsible for other success metrics such as development of local players, competitions and participation numbers of the sport.
This is what gives the Rebels/VRU a different dynamic. With a successful team they have an opportunity to capitalise by engaging with grassroots and essentially future proofing the team. Build the pathways. Build the grassroots.
This is what gives the Rebels/VRU a different dynamic. With a successful team they have an opportunity to capitalise by engaging with grassroots and essentially future proofing the team. Build the pathways. Build the grassroots.
James Pettifer
Jim Clark (26)
The fallacy as I see it about the size of Melbourne is that while it is the bridesmaid of Australian cities in terms of size, the absolute number of rugby supporters in the city doesn't fill me with confidence that rugby will ever be sustainable there. On the other hand, I think that only one of the franchises last year actually had growth in crowd numbers year on year, and that was the Force if I'm not mistaken.
But the Storm do extremely well with regards to crowds and rugby is much more embedded in Melbourne than union. The main issue is that Melbourne people like winning teams. I haven't seen the Rebels since some time early last year.
As far as Canberra is concerned, the crowds have been disappointing for a number of years, but in spite of that, the club posted a small profit in 2017, would have had a reasonable profit in 2016 had there not been an expensive sacking that year, and is likely to improve its bottom line again this year. Longer term, it is the ability to run the ship at a profit that will measure the success or otherwise of each of the clubs.
To some extent. However, there is a massive drop in support for SuperRugby which is demonstrated by both reduction in crowds across the board and ratings. This will be a fundamental issue for RA in a couple of years.
Looking at the history of the Rebels, I have no confidence that they will turn their ship around to achieve a profit given the combination of high wages bill, high administrative overheads and disappointing crowds. I was confident the Force would continue to survive and flourish especially with the backing of Andrew Forrest.
I don't think the wage bill is as high as some people actually think. I would suspect the Waratahs would be higher. I would argue that the Force were not flourishing at all. Their crowds were just as bad as either the Brumbies and the Rebels. Yeah, they had some "anti-east cost RA" boosts at points during the year but the crowds were still crap for both the Brumbies and the Force particularly given the much much better performance than the Rebels during the 2017 year. In terms of wins, the Force had a good year and the Rebels had a really bad year but the Rebels still won more over the last 3 years than the Force.
In essence, I am saying that I think Australian rugby would be in a better place had the decision been the other way round.[/quote]
My honest belief is that there wasn't a choice assuming we were going to go down the ludicrous decision of shrinking to greatness. The RA were not able to cease the Rebels due to the contracts and how the team was set up. I think that you also underestimate the player base in Victoria and the players that are only starting to come out into SuperRugby now. I believe that in the long term that this will be slightly more than you would get from WA. That said, the loss of WA will destroy a newly created pathway for rugby and I don't know if it will be able to be recreated. Personally, I would have killed the Brumbies. I think Rugby in Canberra could survive without a SuperRugby team for a couple of years whereas I am not sure that Melbourne or Perth would be able to survive. Hopefully I am wrong and we have WA back into whatever RA and partners come up with in a couple of years.
I think this year is going to be a very disappointing for the RA. The Reds are either going to find that the untested young players are stars or, more likely, fall in a crashing heap. The Waratahs will continue their mediocre performances. I have concerns about the Rebels - the team is clearly much stronger - but I am not as convinced about Wessels as some seem to be - winning 6 games in a year doesn't prove to me that he is a good coach - the Rebels won 7 under TT in 2016 with what I would think was a weaker team than the 2017 Force and I definitely don't consider TT a good coach. And the Brumbies will have a decent year as they always do.
But the Storm do extremely well with regards to crowds and rugby is much more embedded in Melbourne than union. The main issue is that Melbourne people like winning teams. I haven't seen the Rebels since some time early last year.
As far as Canberra is concerned, the crowds have been disappointing for a number of years, but in spite of that, the club posted a small profit in 2017, would have had a reasonable profit in 2016 had there not been an expensive sacking that year, and is likely to improve its bottom line again this year. Longer term, it is the ability to run the ship at a profit that will measure the success or otherwise of each of the clubs.
To some extent. However, there is a massive drop in support for SuperRugby which is demonstrated by both reduction in crowds across the board and ratings. This will be a fundamental issue for RA in a couple of years.
Looking at the history of the Rebels, I have no confidence that they will turn their ship around to achieve a profit given the combination of high wages bill, high administrative overheads and disappointing crowds. I was confident the Force would continue to survive and flourish especially with the backing of Andrew Forrest.
I don't think the wage bill is as high as some people actually think. I would suspect the Waratahs would be higher. I would argue that the Force were not flourishing at all. Their crowds were just as bad as either the Brumbies and the Rebels. Yeah, they had some "anti-east cost RA" boosts at points during the year but the crowds were still crap for both the Brumbies and the Force particularly given the much much better performance than the Rebels during the 2017 year. In terms of wins, the Force had a good year and the Rebels had a really bad year but the Rebels still won more over the last 3 years than the Force.
In essence, I am saying that I think Australian rugby would be in a better place had the decision been the other way round.[/quote]
My honest belief is that there wasn't a choice assuming we were going to go down the ludicrous decision of shrinking to greatness. The RA were not able to cease the Rebels due to the contracts and how the team was set up. I think that you also underestimate the player base in Victoria and the players that are only starting to come out into SuperRugby now. I believe that in the long term that this will be slightly more than you would get from WA. That said, the loss of WA will destroy a newly created pathway for rugby and I don't know if it will be able to be recreated. Personally, I would have killed the Brumbies. I think Rugby in Canberra could survive without a SuperRugby team for a couple of years whereas I am not sure that Melbourne or Perth would be able to survive. Hopefully I am wrong and we have WA back into whatever RA and partners come up with in a couple of years.
I think this year is going to be a very disappointing for the RA. The Reds are either going to find that the untested young players are stars or, more likely, fall in a crashing heap. The Waratahs will continue their mediocre performances. I have concerns about the Rebels - the team is clearly much stronger - but I am not as convinced about Wessels as some seem to be - winning 6 games in a year doesn't prove to me that he is a good coach - the Rebels won 7 under TT in 2016 with what I would think was a weaker team than the 2017 Force and I definitely don't consider TT a good coach. And the Brumbies will have a decent year as they always do.
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