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RBS 6 Nations 2013

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the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
We could have had SBW or Nonu outside ROG against Wales and at the weekend and it wouldn’t have mattered. Defenses know all they have to do is blitz on the outside and force ROG to run causing a turnover or kick to their back 3 that are in position. ROG’s lack of physicality doesn’t cut it anymore, he is an Irish legend and always will be but Kidney picking him is the problem and it is tarnishing his legacy.

In regards to playing Sexton at 12, I never want to see this unless it is made necessary through injury, again. Luke Marshall should be Irelands 12 after the 6 nations and should be given a run of games to grow into the role.

I see Healy got a 2 game ban, I thought he would have got it reduced to one given he has never had a yellow or red card in his career. I mean Felon Armitage got a week taken off a ban because he turned up in a suit!
And with ROG not being able to kick the ball out of hand further than an eleven year old we get stuck back and unable to escape. Agree that Sexton is a ten but we have to start thinking about the possibility that he is going to be injured more often and we need proper back up that needs time to build their confidence. I think we should be thankful that Healy got two games myself, it was fuckng dangerous and a serious loss of temper that could have been much worse for Dan Cole than it was. (although it would be nice to hear what he was up to and what the ref thought he was up to?????)
 

Craig Riddington

Sydney Middleton (9)
I was disgusted that at the end of a world cup year, when the NH players had been on the go for two years without a break, Ireland were forced by the IRB to play a three test series against NZ. That we are going to get our best players to play for another two years with little or no summer break must have the Southern hemisphere pissing themselves that we are so willing to shoot ourselves in the foot. The French will lick their lips, as always, at the prospect of the inevitable grand slam that follows every lions tour..

I love your passion and I'm not trying to wind you up here but there is another side to the coin. There is a huge question mark over the number of matches players are capable of playing in a year... and maybe another tour to NZ after the world cup was too much. But I don't think that it's factually correct to suggest that Ireland are suffering more than anyone else. Maybe the Southern Hemisphere teams are "pissing themselves" but with all the travel they do and matches they play, I doubt they have time. Since July 2011 Ireland has played 19 International matches and will have completed 22 by the end of 6N. In the same period, Australia will have played in 28. For Australia, the Lions tour comes in the middle of S15 and after S15 they are into the Rugby Championship - another 7 internationals and a wee bit of travel.


I am assuming that the Irish players and indeed, all of the players from the home nations are prepared to bash shit out of each other to get into the Lions is because they value it? Maybe they are even passionate about it? I was making the assumption they also go to the same lengths to get into the Irish team and that they would give their best, whether they played for the Lions or for their country. Just an assumption. I can't recall anyone turning the opportunity to play for the Lions down because they didn't believe in it. And given it's their choice, who are we to deny them.

"I hate playing in England, I hate England, I hate the bloody English and if you take that personally, then you should" Keith Wood. And thats part of the magic of the Lions. The fact that you bring all these players together that are at each other during the 6N, that even hate each other, that have all these preconceived ideas about each other and they get over all of that, form a team and play test rugby. I bet Woody is pretty thankful for the opportunity he had to play for the Lions and the friendships he made and the experience he gained as a player. Thats not BS.

As I don't know the coaching staff personally I can't comment on their character. I've never met any of them. But I would have thought it extraordinary if they had no concern for the welfare of their players. Such an approach would undermine any coach with ambition.

I can understand that it would be hard to support any team that has England players in it cos they are all arrogant. Every last one of them...and Philips too. Gee, even I get annoyed by Ashton and all his carry-on sometimes. Though, I did note that he made the effort to go over and shake Zebo's hand and wish him well as he left the field the other day. I wonder, maybe that's just a preconceived idea about him and all the English players that is wrong?? No, Ashton is definitely a twat.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
And with ROG not being able to kick the ball out of hand further than an eleven year old we get stuck back and unable to escape. Agree that Sexton is a ten but we have to start thinking about the possibility that he is going to be injured more often and we need proper back up that needs time to build their confidence. I think we should be thankful that Healy got two games myself, it was fuckng dangerous and a serious loss of temper that could have been much worse for Dan Cole than it was. (although it would be nice to hear what he was up to and what the ref thought he was up to?????)

Interestingly Healys ban isn't starting till Monday because they said he wouldnt have played of Leinster at the weekend. This could open up a serious can of worms if the citing commission is predicting who will and wont play in various games and basing bans on it (although there is no way Healy will play at the weekend). I expect Healy to appeal and win allowing him to be back in time for the France game.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
[quote="I can understand that it would be hard to support any team that has England players in it cos they are all arrogant. Every last one of them.and Philips too. Gee, even I get annoyed by Ashton and all his carry-on sometimes. Though, I did note that he made the effort to go over and shake Zebo's hand and wish him well as he left the field the other day. I wonder, maybe that's just a preconceived idea about him and all the English players that is wrong?? No, Ashton is definitely a twat.[/quote]

I wouldn't be so sure he was wishing Zebo well given his previous on field comments that have come out in the public domain. However if this has come out in the media thats what he was doing happy enough to accept it with a serious dose of suprise and respect.
 

KevinO

Geoff Shaw (53)
Interestingly Healys ban isn't starting till Monday because they said he wouldnt have played of Leinster at the weekend. This could open up a serious can of worms if the citing commission is predicting who will and wont play in various games and basing bans on it (although there is no way Healy will play at the weekend). I expect Healy to appeal and win allowing him to be back in time for the France game.
Well this is a case where they should play Healy on the weekend, or at least name him in the starting side to see what the citing commission does. Worst case is he still has a two match ban. Best case he only misses one match for Ireland.
 

Craig Riddington

Sydney Middleton (9)
I wouldn't be so sure he was wishing Zebo well given his previous on field comments that have come out in the public domain. However if this has come out in the media thats what he was doing happy enough to accept it with a serious dose of suprise and respect.[/quote]

Well it did look genuine to me at the time though I didn't know there was any background commentary to all this. Anything juicy? I guess my original point was that we never know what these guys are really like and we shouldn't be too quick to judge. Though I am definitely with you, nothing would surprise me when it comes to Ashton.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
I wouldn't be so sure he was wishing Zebo well given his previous on field comments that have come out in the public domain. However if this has come out in the media thats what he was doing happy enough to accept it with a serious dose of suprise and respect.

Well it did look genuine to me at the time though I didn't know there was any background commentary to all this. Anything juicy? I guess my original point was that we never know what these guys are really like and we shouldn't be too quick to judge. Though I am definitely with you, nothing would surprise me when it comes to Ashton.[/quote]

In the 2011 game in Landsdowne Rd he was shouting to Sexton as he lined up he place kicks "Shouldn't you be in the bench." Sexton slots it over and retorted "Keep talking and I'll keep scoring".
In the Heineken Cup final the same year Shane Geraghty smashed Richardt Strauss in the 70th minute, Ashton leant over him and said "Can't believe you got smashed by a 10" Strauss replied "Can't believe your ten points down".
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Well this is a case where they should play Healy on the weekend, or at least name him in the starting side to see what the citing commission does. Worst case is he still has a two match ban. Best case he only misses one match for Ireland.

Even if its a token 2 minutes I agree, Healy should make some sort of appearence at the weekend.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
I love your passion and I'm not trying to wind you up here but there is another side to the coin. There is a huge question mark over the number of matches players are capable of playing in a year. and maybe another tour to NZ after the world cup was too much. But I don't think that it's factually correct to suggest that Ireland are suffering more than anyone else. Maybe the Southern Hemisphere teams are "pissing themselves" but with all the travel they do and matches they play, I doubt they have time. Since July 2011 Ireland has played 19 International matches and will have completed 22 by the end of 6N. In the same period, Australia will have played in 28. For Australia, the Lions tour comes in the middle of S15 and after S15 they are into the Rugby Championship - another 7 internationals and a wee bit of travel.


I am assuming that the Irish players and indeed, all of the players from the home nations are prepared to bash shit out of each other to get into the Lions is because they value it? Maybe they are even passionate about it? I was making the assumption they also go to the same lengths to get into the Irish team and that they would give their best, whether they played for the Lions or for their country. Just an assumption. I can't recall anyone turning the opportunity to play for the Lions down because they didn't believe in it. And given it's their choice, who are we to deny them.

"I hate playing in England, I hate England, I hate the bloody English and if you take that personally, then you should" Keith Wood. And thats part of the magic of the Lions. The fact that you bring all these players together that are at each other during the 6N, that even hate each other, that have all these preconceived ideas about each other and they get over all of that, form a team and play test rugby. I bet Woody is pretty thankful for the opportunity he had to play for the Lions and the friendships he made and the experience he gained as a player. Thats not BS.

As I don't know the coaching staff personally I can't comment on their character. I've never met any of them. But I would have thought it extraordinary if they had no concern for the welfare of their players. Such an approach would undermine any coach with ambition.

I can understand that it would be hard to support any team that has England players in it cos they are all arrogant. Every last one of them.and Philips too. Gee, even I get annoyed by Ashton and all his carry-on sometimes. Though, I did note that he made the effort to go over and shake Zebo's hand and wish him well as he left the field the other day. I wonder, maybe that's just a preconceived idea about him and all the English players that is wrong?? No, Ashton is definitely a twat.
I didn't suggest it was 'factually correct' that Ireland suffer more than any other nation in relation to games played per year, I was responding to your contrasting of a Lions tour to Ireland's tour of NZ. I was not happy about Ireland playing NZ at the end of two years without a break but so be it that is what the IRB wanted and we just had to wear it.

As for the SH schedule, when in the cycle do SH international players play for two seasons without a break? NZ played their last game last year on the first of December and the Super season has not started yet and that is the same every year. World cup or Lions year, the SH teams get a proper summer break, in a world cup year the NH players forego a summer break and come straight back to playing Henieken cup rugby without a break. If you want anecdotal evidence of what playing playing without a break can do to a player look no further than the career of Rocky Elsom!!!

A lions tour falls all over the summer break for the NH players and involves ten matches as opposed to three, seven of those games are against teams that have little interest outside of attempting to maim as many Lions as they can.

As for the suggestion that Irish players are willing to bash shit out of each other to get on the Irish team and that being comparable to the Lions? Irish rugby is centralised and run by the IRFU (we don't have sugar daddies who regard rugby clubs as penis extensions, although in the case of Nigel Wray it has to be wondered if it is possible to extend something that doesn't exist), The IRFU have control over when centrally contracted players can and cannot play and they manage to organise all the best Irish players to play against each other over the season in league matches with cameras and citing commsioners, which makes for very good trials. Every Lion goes on about the intensity of the competition for Lions places and that all happens on alien hard surfaces thousands of miles away from the medical/ conditioning experts who know the players strengths and weakness best and behind closed doors without players being concerned that a camera might pick up any foul play.

No one denies that all the players want to play for the Lions although maybe the remuneration might be part of the attraction (like playing for the Barbarians, something which current Irish players are precluded from doing thank fuck). Although I remember Lord Bald and the cnut Campbell spinning against D'Arcy in 2005 that he didn't want to play which was complete bollix he wasn't fit. Maybe you believe the results of elections that show unanimity, in my experience they normally involve people being unwilling or unable to raise their hands and say no. I have heard of plenty of stories of players hating lions tours but they never make it into the press funnily enough.

Anyway, as my only concern is Irish players let me suggest that as Irish rugby is, essentially, owned by the fans via supporters clubs, ticket sales, merchandise etc the fans have some right to a say in when and where Irish players play regardless of the players desires. I started a poll on munsterfans asking whether Irish players should be on the next Lions tour to which 30% replied no; obviously a minority but a significant one and yet I have never once read an article in the press questioning the exercise, could that be because the journos do not fancy foregoing the all expenses paid trip?

As for the coaches being concerned for the players welfare, was it not the coach who authorized the cutting open of a players lip? Gatland is a complete and utter tool, although his comments about English players over the last few days have been a first class demonstration of his complete gob shitery, is he starting his campaign to undermine the 2017 lions tour to NZ, who he hopes to be coaching by then, already???. Edwards amply demonstrated his attitude to the Irish when he attacked the welsh physio who was Irish and had the temerity to suggest that Edwards choice of song after a game against Ireland might be racist (guess who lost his job?). Rowntree was the genius who started Vickery and Mears in the last Lions series. And Farrell should not be anywhere near coaching a Lions team in which his son might be involved. I would say it might be beneficial if the shamelessly nepotistic Farrell picked his son for the starting xv on the tour but the scarring around ROG's eye demonstrates that the dangerous job for an OH on a Lions tour to Australia is in the pointless mid week team. Yes we remember you Duncan McRae.

And now onto the 'arrogant' english bit. If you look at the players I cited (sorry freudian slip), there was no mention of Cole, Robshaw, Parling, Launchbury or indeed cry baby Youngs, although after his disgraceful carry on in Llanelli last year he might have warranted being bracketed with that charm school. I very carefully selected the players I could not countenance supporting, although Phillips might not be that bad. Hartley, Tulagi, Ashton, Wood, and Lawes (two of them aren't english anyway so that scuppers the usual English chip on the shoulder about everyone calling them arrogant) are serial thugs.

Specifically on Ashton, we are talking about someone who has such 'respect' for the game that he continues to do something that is a complete anathema to any understanding of how a game is meant to be played and won; the prick even acknowledges that his late father would tell him to stop his dive and yet he continues to do it except now he only does it in one sided games to rub the losing teams nose in it. I saw him shake Zebo's hand on sunday as well; given his form I would question whether or not he had some snide little comment to add but even if he didn't, forgive me if I question whether his motives were anything other than entirely cynical: could it be that someone has told him that he needs to stop being such a cnut if he wants to make a lions tour?

Anyway, even if the team were not coached by or did not contain such charming individuals, I would not be in favour of Irish players being on the tour. Irish rugby has carefully set itself up to try and maximize its very limited resources, it is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but, I believe, it suits Irish rugby, owned as it is by the fans. The Lions is a step too far for our resources in the modern pro era. Irish rugby cannot afford, literally, to lose players of the calibre of Paul O'Connell, Brian O' Driscoll, Stephen Ferris, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald etc to injuries sustained playing for province or country so I am absolutely certain they can ill afford for such players to suffer career shortening injuries playing for the Lions.

That the players want to play is largely irrelevant IMHO, if the IRFU were to say you can play for the Lions but you will need to cover your risk were you to suffer injury, I don't think there would be quite such enthusiasm. And before you retort that the Lions picks up the tab for injury, are they still paying for Ferris and POC's injuries picked up in service of the Lions in 2009?

So there you go, no sweeping judgments on 'English' players; it just happens that those five out of the players likely to make a Lions tour plus Phillips are not players I would ever support. If Delon Armitage or the bandy legged assassin Liam Williams or (God help us) Calum Clark were to be in the squad they would be added to the list.
 

Craig Riddington

Sydney Middleton (9)
TPP - Nice try but we are going to have to agree to disagree cos I'm with 70% of Munster supporters.

I think we can agree that Ashton is a twat though.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
TPP - Nice try but we are going to have to agree to disagree cos I'm with 70% of Munster supporters.

I think we can agree that Ashton is a twat though.
70% of members of munsterfans.com which is a very broad church comprising Supporters of all four Irish provinces, welsh, french and saffa fans. We even get the odd, anomalous (forgive the tautology) english fan who, I know this will be be hard for many to believe, comes on to learn something about a player from another team!?! If it were possible to poll only munster fans I am confident there would be a clear majority against our players risking injury on such a futile exercise.

Suffice to say, the first thing I would like to see out of this Lions tour is, apart from BOD, zero Irish involvement. Secondly, whichever Irish lads do end up on it don't get injured. After that, if the tour ends up an absolute shambles with all the usual 'English' suspects indulging in koala baiting, Uluru desecration, mild sexual assault of hotel staff and whatever else their infantile brains can summon up to entertain themselves, (is there a ferry that goes through salt crocodile infested waters?) it will be good news. If the Lions lose three nil it will be a bonus but my only real concern is that the Irish lads come home safe and sound, we have more than done our bit for the fucking lions.

However, I do admire your selfless loyalty to the cause, I half heartedly supported England against Wales last year for the first time ever (it was down to the filth that came out of the welsh over Rolland's correct dismissal of the ex favorite to be the Lions captain) and have never felt so unclean wanting Ashton to do well. It was probably not good for my long term mental health to engender such feelings of guilt.

EDIT but that said of course we will agree to disagree, and please don't make the fatal mistake of taking me too seriously. It is an opinion about a game and that is all, the untimely death of Nevin Spence, his brother and father earlier in this season is life or death, this is just a bit of fun.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Well this is a case where they should play Healy on the weekend, or at least name him in the starting side to see what the citing commission does. Worst case is he still has a two match ban. Best case he only misses one match for Ireland.

Leinster are now saying they are planning on playing Healy at the weekend. This could get messy between Leinster, IRFU and 6 nations citing commission!
 

KevinO

Geoff Shaw (53)
Leinster are now saying they are planning on playing Healy at the weekend. This could get messy between Leinster, IRFU and 6 nations citing commission!
Well it's not in Ireland and Leinster best interest to rest a player for 3 weeks in the middle of the season. The citing commission should not choose which games a player misses, 2 matches is 2 matches and they will learn from this.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Unconfirmed rumours on Twitter that Ian Keatley will be called up to the Irish squad for the Scotland game, of the 3 out halves not in the squad he'd be the worst choice IMHO. Although Jackson has been injured and Mad-Dog is just not Kidneys kype of player.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
I think it is tight between Madigan and Keatley myself. Keatley has done very well for Munster, my only concern is whether he will conquer his nerves. Jackson has gone backwards this year IMHO and is the worst off the tee of the three. The one thing all three have however is they are capable of kicking the ball more than twenty yards, they can tackle and they represent more of a running threat than an old fella on a mobility scooter, so they should be in ahead of ROG who really should call it a day for Ireland and Munster although I would be delighted (and surprised) if he played a blinder in Murrayfield.

On Healy, I think a very dangerous game is being played as these twats take themselves very seriously. However, it is so unusual for an Irish player to be cited we might get away with it. Personally I think two six nations games is a fair enough punishment, although I will not be taking lectures from the English about citings and bans!?!
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
I would definitely like to see Keatley get a start against the Scots but I fully expect ROG to be given the nod. I think Kidney is in the phase of his Ireland career where he is making decisions that will keep him in the job. He's lost sight of the long term development of the squad and is only focused on winning the next game. Players like Keatley, Maddigan, Jackson, Henderson, Marshall etc. will get games during the summer when many of the first choice guys are away with the Lions. However I would not be surprised if a lot of the up and coming guys have to wait until next year to play in their first 6Ns campaign.

Those players will only see 2 6Ns campaigns before the next RWC. That's not a good position to be in when we need to see who from 4 possible fly-halves (Keatley, Maddigan, Jackson & Hanrahan) really has what it takes to deliver in a pressure situation in green and compete with Sexton for the 10 jersey. We're coming to the end of the golden generation and we're in danger of creating a lost generation.

I would say that in terms of the selection policy of the coaches, rather than solely the talent available, there is more competition for places at Munster, Ulster and Leinster than there is for a starting spot with Ireland at the moment.

On Healy it's fully within the remit of the judiciary to postpone the start of a players ban to avoid the type of situation where Healy would serve his ban partially for Leinster in a game he wouldn't normally have been selected for. Now that he can play for Leinster I think it's right to start him so he doesn't become rusty.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
D'Arcy out for the 6 nations, time to bring Luke Marshall in at 12? He offers a big boot, good physicality, great pass and a good breaking threat.

Edit: Irish media reporting that the backline in training this week was:

Murray
Rog
Earls BOD
McFadden Kearney Gilroy

If that is the line up I'll be backing Scotland to get one over on us.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Those players will only see 2 6Ns campaigns before the next RWC. That's not a good position to be in when we need to see who from 4 possible fly-halves (Keatley, Maddigan, Jackson & Hanrahan) really has what it takes to deliver in a pressure situation in green and compete with Sexton for the 10 jersey. We're coming to the end of the golden generation and we're in danger of creating a lost generation.
.

No player symbolises this more than Hanrahan, nominated for U-20 World player of the year, and has only played twice for Munster after this. If he was Aussie he'd be given a lot more opportunities, we are so slow to give young players a fair go, and will always give 50:50 calls to the more experienced guys.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
No player symbolises this more than Hanrahan, nominated for U-20 World player of the year, and has only played twice for Munster after this. If he was Aussie he'd be given a lot more opportunities, we are so slow to give young players a fair go, and will always give 50:50 calls to the more experienced guys.
I think Tadge Furlong being on the bench for Clontarf is a fairly shocking waste of resources as well. Anyway I am off to watch JJ tonight in sunny Llanelli, so like a dog with two dicks today!!! On the OH discussion, Jackson did not take any kicks for Ulster last night!?!? Think that rules him out of Irish bench duties myself unless McFadden is in the squad. ROG starting for Munster tonight with Keatley 15.
 
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