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Quade v Barnes... Australia's version of Carlos v Mehrtens?

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T

TOCC

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Its rather amazing the similarities between Cooper and Barnes and what is mentioned in the below article..
Given Quade just re-signed until 2015 I think the rivalry is only going to become more and more prominent.

Is Carlos Spencer or Andrew Mehrtens our best No 10?




By CHRIS RATTUE
There's the line about teaching old dogs new tricks. And there's another, about getting sold a pup.
Can Andrew Mehrtens, All Black hero, lift himself into a third World Cup appearance by mixing it with the best defensive lines and turning into a tackling tyro.
Or is John Mitchell letting "Mehrts" and has army of fans down gently? Are the selectors being guarded about change instead of loudly announcing a changing of the guard?
Mitchell has told Mehrtens he must be more aggressive, dominate tackles and take the ball to the line.
Unless he does, Carlos Spencer will likely head to the World Cup as the All Blacks pivot, with Dan Carter, a prototype of the new rugby wunderkind, his back-up.
The 30-year-old Mehrtens, the All Blacks' record test points scorer, has just a handful of games to answer the battle cry unless he receives a dramatic Tri-Nations call-up.
Canterbury play Southland and Fiji then have just two NPC games, against battlers Northland and Bay of Plenty, before the World Cup squad is announced on August 25.
Mehrtens has always had a touch of the likeable rogue. In his Canterbury pen pic, Mehrtens claims his second choice of profession would be as a worm in a bottle of tequila.
And in a game where blunt-speaking players are rare, Mehrtens is among the few who willingly make valid points on issues such as errant rugby balls.
But actions will now speak louder than words for Mehrtens, although some believe the axe has already fallen on a great All Black career.
Here's a view from across the Tasman.
Peter FitzSimons, raconteur, witty and perceptive writer, and former Wallaby, reckons we might all be in the pup-buying business because Mehrtens' fate is sealed.
"To kill off an icon like Mehrtens is not an easy job ... It's easier to tell him he has to change his game," says FitzSimons, a major fan of Mitchell's "air of authority" and dedication to the All Blacks' cause rather than his own.
"Mehrtens is an absolute champion. He's entitled to say this is the way I've always played. By the time you're 30 you are what you are, and he's been at the top for seven or eight years now.
"From what I've seen it's very hard to change your game at that stage. I can't think of anyone who's done it."
FitzSimons goes to what seems to be the heart of the Mitchell game plan when he says coaches want players who can do it all: tackle, pass, run, kick and so on.
He points to Stephen Larkham's match-winning drop goal in extra time to beat South Africa in the 1999 World Cup semifinal at Twickenham as a prime example.
Larkham, who almost regards kicking as a crime, launched the ball 50 metres, and launched Australia towards their second cup triumph.
"The only drop goal he has ever kicked in a test, and the finest drop goal I have ever seen in rugby. When it was needed he could do it," says FitzSimons.
So if Mehrtens is in the feeling-blue corner, Spencer remains the red-hot favourite to guide this All Black World Cup campaign.
The Auckland star has a reserved nature, completely at odds with the flash- harry image some see.
Mingling in public is not always easy for sports stars, yet Spencer's manager, David Jones, talks of him turning the other cheek, without frustration or rancour, when baited by smart mouths in social situations.
It's his on-field flamboyance which has sometimes cursed a game often delivered with a glorious smile and a twinkle in the eye.
You can sense Spencer is carrying the traditions of magical All Black greats such as George Nepia and Johnny Smith. He is far more than a one-card trick - meaning the deck sometimes ends up splattered all over the floor.
Gifted to excess, experienced, and now free of test goalkicking, Spencer can take on the line, is an adequate defender, and showed against England in Wellington that he can break open the best defences, even though it was not a stellar performance from him that night. The major question mark is over his tactical nous for 80 minutes.
The outstanding All Blacks first-five eighth Grant Fox, the backline coach of NPC champions Auckland, is a "huge fan" of Spencer and Mehrtens.
"I like contrasts, and Andrew's pedigree at test level is well documented," he says. "I'm confident Carlos is capable of delivering at test level given the right platform from set phase, and front-foot ball from second phase.
"But Andrew offers a contrast, and if it isn't working for whatever reason, we can go down a different path.
"In my view, yes, absolutely, Mehrtens should be in the World Cup squad. He has a very strong tactical kicking game, brings a lot of organisation, a lot of vision, structure. I think he's our best goalkicker, end of story.
"They'll worry more about Carlos with ball in hand, although Andrew is really quick and capable, but he runs less often and he's not a stepper like Carlos.
"Carlos is always trying to work space for those around him. He'll take the ball right to the line and step, try to manipulate space, and that's not so much Andrew's game.
"Andrew will spot a hole, put the hammer down and see you later, but those opportunities don't present themselves that often.
"But maybe the selectors are hell-bent on having players in certain positions with certain skill sets."
Fox was asked to change his game after the 1991 World Cup by new All Blacks coach Laurie Mains, who Fox approached after hearing rumblings.
"I was asked to play flatter and wider, and be more of a running threat on the blindside. It was an alignment issue, in many ways being asked to do things Andrew is being asked to do.
"I can sympathise with him. I was asked to change at a similar age. It's not easy so late in your career, but at least if you know what's required you can work on it.
"It's got to become an automotive response, achieved through repetition. Old habits die hard and you go back to what you know and are more comfortable with.
"I fought my way back, so I had some success. But I wouldn't say I got it into my instincts."
Fox says Mehrtens will never become "dominant in the tackle."
But he is not being asked to do the impossible in taking the ball to the line - which prevents inside defenders escaping to cover gaps out wide - then running when the opportunity arises.
"Wayne Smith wanted him to play much flatter and he's done that since, although not as flat as Carlos does," says Fox.
"But it's not the Henry Honiball-style of just charging it up and taking as many tacklers as possible with you over the advantage line."
So Mehrtens, slighter than Spencer, is being asked to change when the surrounding human cannonballs are increasingly stronger, fitter, faster. Even if he makes the World Cup squad, how much playing time would Mehrtens get?
Spencer's approach, built on remarkable natural gifts, appears more suited to the modern game the way John Mitchell sees it.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/all-blacks/news/article.cfm?c_id=116&objectid=3512078
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
The problem is that Barnes does not have any of the skills that made Mehrtens a Champion player, where as Cooper has a lot of the skills that made Spencer great, and probably only needs a bit of time. Barnes wouldn't even be considered if Cooper, Lealiifano or O'Connor were fit. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he is above these players either. He is still number 4 5/8 in my books.
 

Schadenfreude

John Solomon (38)
The problem is that Barnes does not have any of the skills that made Mehrtens a Champion player, where as Cooper has a lot of the skills that made Spencer great, and probably only needs a bit of time. Barnes wouldn't even be considered if Cooper, Lealiifano or O'Connor were fit. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he is above these players either. He is still number 4 5/8 in my books.

Did you watch the Wales games?
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
Did you watch the Wales games?

Yeah I did, and to be honest I thought his performance was a little overrated. The key areas of his game that concern me are his organisation of the backline/runners outside him, the decisions he makes to utilise these players (although the Horne try was pretty good work by him), and his ability to lead a team around the park. You could probably put this down to a lack of clear directions from Deans, though. He is a good 12 where he key decision making and organisation isn't his primary responsibility, He just isn't a 10 though.
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
Until JOC (James O'Connor) or Tapuai are ready, and there are very strong arguments to suggest they are not, I would. I did mention a JOC (James O'Connor)-McCabe centre pairing in another thread, but thats really a pipe dream at this stage I think.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Yeah I did, and to be honest I thought his performance was a little overrated.

Do you feel the same way when quade plays?

I think quadelacks maturity to play his best without Barnes next to him. I think the RWC illustrated this a lot. Quade overplays, barnes plays within, it's a pity we can't merge them into one player.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Except that Barnes has Spencer's tackling ability and Cooper has Mehrten's

Well said.

Cooper shouldn't pay for the Wallabies again until he can tackle. Use the form of Barnes to force the issue.

If Kurtley can learn to be a gun defender (and he has) then Quade can too. But he won't unless someone asks him to.
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
At the RWC I think Cooper made some silly decisions and he needs to learn to tone it down and pick his moments. He also needs to learn how to cope with pressure in big games, something he has struggled with ever since I first saw him playing for Souths in Brisbane as a 14 year old. I don't believe he played as badly in that RWC as some fans and media let on. With out wanting to go into it too much, the pack was the reason why we got pumped by Ireland and NZ, not Quade Cooper.

Having a defensive line hang off him, waiting for that freakish pass while options for other players around him open up, is going to be far more dangerous weapon than actually trying that freakish pass every time. The sooner he learns this the better, IMO. Overall though, when Cooper is given a clear game plan he can play very well within that game plan and is generally excellent in the options he takes (kick, pass, run etc.), and leading his team around the park. You are right he does lack maturity and he needs a calmer influence outside him.
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
Well said.

Cooper shouldn't pay for the Wallabies again until he can tackle. Use the form of Barnes to force the issue.

If Kurtley can learn to be a gun defender (and he has) then Quade can too. But he won't unless someone asks him to.

Try saving tackles against the Boks and Italy at the RWC showed he can tackle. Coaches, including Link, need to grow a pair and tell the fucker that if he wants to play at 10 he needs to defend at 10 too.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
It's easy to oversimplify, but personally I see Barnes as the ideal mindset and commitment model for a Wallaby, but Cooper's skill set is undeniably invaluable.

If we could combine the two of them I think we'd get something very similar to Bernie Larkham.
 

Athilnaur

Arch Winning (36)
If Barnes testmatch kicking was a little more pinpoint Cooper wouldn't get a look in.

Got to hand it to Berrick, he's got great character. Gets smashed by media all year, rocks up at test level and changes gear into a class act.

Cooper is going to need to show statesmanlike form to get back the spot.
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
Barnes has done a great job at test level this year. However if the other 4 blokes were fit I think they would of
Done better. Especially LILO JOC (James O'Connor)
And beal. I understand people's concerns with Quade.

Hmm I'm not sure they would have done better. You can't make that claim unless they played, which they didn't. Their inexperience as well could suggest they would have performed worst, rather than better.

I feel at the moment in rugby, or at least certainly within the Wallabies, there is an inclination to put your best player at flyhalf (eg. Beale or O'Connor if they were fit), rather than play them in their best position (eg. fullback and inside centre, respectively). Playing the best player at flyhalf is a very rugby league mentality, where as soon as a player exceeds on the wing, for example (Hayne, Inglis), they are shifted to the centre of the field where they almost always under perform. So, regarding this I am very happy to see Beale at fullback this weekend. Players like O'Connor give me the shits, because they think their talent is wasted at any other position other than flyhalf, even though they have proven shit all in that position.

I very happy to keep Barnes in the team until form warrants he shouldn't be there. But at the moment he is showing the qualities of 2007 and 2008 that gave us hope he is a long term prospect at no. 10.
 

Joe Mac

Arch Winning (36)
Not
Convinced JOC (James O'Connor) is better than Barnes or LILO at 10. He's a future 13 for my money.

JOC (James O'Connor) looks to be the perfect 15 to me. I can't see why we don't see more of him in that position? He could become Australia's version of Christian Cullen
 
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