Qld Premier Rugby 2012

[Jets]

So TD, what you are saying is that junior clubs and schools should get all the credit for developing players and none should go to the senior clubs they play for?

If that's the case a club like Wests shouldn't get any credit for players like Hugh McMenniman and Richard Brown, Sunnybank couldn't take any credit for Albert Anae or Richard Kingi and East had nothing to do with Aidan Toua or Joel Falkner? All of these players were developed through their school and had played in schoolboy teams before going to their senior clubs.

The other thing is a lot of Premier Clubs are quite separate to their Junior Clubs and don't have any real links to the players they develop apart from playing at the same home ground.

Players play for different clubs for a number of reasons and saying teams only win because they have "stacked rosters" of players they didn't develop is just an excuse that under performing clubs use.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

What I am saying is mate, you can’t really say you have done all the development when the kid was already a superstar when he came to you (i.e the examples provided was james hanson). For instance Wests could claim Angus Cottrell as I don’t believe he was a schoolboy rep or had any interest from any rep teams until the force unearthed him playing Premier grade for wests. Easts could take up Matt Brandon cause I don’t think he did anything really prior to club rugby (could be wrong).
I understand that clubs help players develop in some way or the other regardless of the cv of the player coming in as no matter where you are training and playing will get you better. But places like university lay claim to kids who were already on the ‘righteous’ path anyway.
You can’t tell me that if you took a player like (let’s say) Jonah Placid that he wouldn’t be a star if he played at norths, wests or souths. But if you grab a kid who never played any real rep in school turn him into an Aus u20 that’s real development to boast about.

I don’t think anyone at wests claims richard brown or hugh as I am pretty sure they were uni colts……..

 

[PlayedinHeaven]

What I am saying is mate, you can’t really say you have done all the development when the kid was already a superstar when he came to you (i.e the examples provided was james hanson). For instance Wests could claim Angus Cottrell as I don’t believe he was a schoolboy rep or had any interest from any rep teams until the force unearthed him playing Premier grade for wests. Easts could take up Matt Brandon cause I don’t think he did anything really prior to club rugby (could be wrong).
I understand that clubs help players develop in some way or the other regardless of the cv of the player coming in as no matter where you are training and playing will get you better. But places like university lay claim to kids who were already on the ‘righteous’ path anyway.
You can’t tell me that if you took a player like (let’s say) Jonah Placid that he wouldn’t be a star if he played at norths, wests or souths. But if you grab a kid who never played any real rep in school turn him into an Aus u20 that’s real development to boast about.

I don’t think anyone at wests claims richard brown or hugh as I am pretty sure they were uni colts……..

Brandon was an Aussie schoolboy along with a handful of other churchie boys from that year. This is an argument that can go on forever without anything bring resolved. Every year people whinge about Uni and sunnybank having stacked rosters which they do but at what stage do people realize that this not going to change, these clubs have unlimited resources at their disposal, what are they supposed to do? Not use them? If other clubs were in the same financial position they would be doing exactly the same thing. not all the better players at these clubs are being compensated, as the old saying goes success breeds success and when coming to town a lot of good players head where they can win a comp because nobody enjoys losing. Clubs who continually put all their resources into their colts are the ones that will be able to break this cycle. Easts have done it recently and will reap the benefits if the coaches are good enough. They have managed to pick up 15 QLD schoolboys in the last 2 years and have a very young and promising roster. I have no idea how they haven't done better they they have. But surely they are sucuring a pretty solid future for the club, and should be an example for other clubs on how to compete with the unis and sunnybanks in the long run. Colts and the clubs coaching staff should be top priority

 

[Red Heavy]

Agree this is an argument that isn't going anywhere but just a few things.
Connection between uni and kenmore is very strong and beneficial to both parties. Not sure where your "mail" is coming from but it's wrong.
If you want players that uni have helped developed that weren't schoolboy stars - Ian Prior, Tevita Kuridrani and Tom Cox all have super 15 contracts and where looked over at school level. Heath tessmann was overlooked for years and I am sure there are plenty of others. Also there is a big leap for school to colts to grade with a massive leap then to super xv. Just because you made some rep teams at school does not mean are automatic selections in prem colts, then prems then super xv and so on.
Lastly as bad as this sounds I believe Jonah would look good for what ever club he plays for but the truth is would be much more of a star at uni, gps or the bank. Not because of coaching and facilities (wouldn't hurt) but because of the other caliber of players around him he would not have to be a one man show with the wieght of the team and their season on his shoulders week in week out. Like Jesse mogg when he played for uni in their worst colts year in living memory

 

[thierry dusautoir]

you missed th epoint its got nothign to do with stacked rosters and i never said they havent developed players. But it shoudl be the tom cox and ian prior -eque stories that people spruik not look we got this kid who was aus school boy in the sevens program and playing u20s australia....if that makes sense?

To use an analogy its like a child who has been a child actor going to university to study and then afterwards the kid moves on to become an adult actor. The university can't really be like we are the reason there career took off can they?


On a sid enot i though kuridrani was a Broncos player? then came back to uni

 

[Red Heavy]

That's his cousin kris from GPS who played schoolboy rep under a different last name.
I do see your point but I would liken it more to a kid who did some adds as a child then went to Nida or someother acting school and turned into a big Hollywood star or a student who got an A in woodwork at school then turns into a chipy. While the early acts give them a good base knowledge of what is required, a set of skills and perhaps a taste of what they want in the future but it's a big leap for most people and that's more what my point is about. The jump from school boy to professional is huge and there is a lot of hard work involved by the player. Chibb left school 6 or 7 years ago and has done alot of work in academies and at the reds to finally get a wallaby cap.

 

[spectator]

James Hanson is a fine player who has worked very hard to be where he is. More to the point, he was never going anywhere else but Uni, given his bloodlines.

 

[SouthernX]

Can I just say that Brisbane Club Rugby is always going to be a stepping stone for players to advance their rugby careers to greener pastures. i dont really care where your from, its where your at.

Must be frustrating being a talented back caught in a bad backline. You get less ball then most & can disappear in games. i can be more sympathetic to backs changing clubs as you need a half decent Flyhalf directing you around the field.

As for the piggies. I dont think it matters where you play. Its all about the individuals & the breakdowns up front. A guy like James Hanson is still going to look like the dominating hooker he is weather he is wearing a stingrays jersey or a heavies jersey.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

I am going to have to disagree with you Southern X. Although I think your idea about forward play is correct. I am definitely a person who thinks if your good enough you will make ti no matter where you are.
So I don't think a person who is a good centre or winger is going to have their development hampered by the fact that they don't have the best fly half inside of them. I would suggest a player who has to rely on a flyhalf to create their chances for them is probably not the type of player needed at the next level. I am not completely ignorant to the benefit of a good flyhalf I feel like there is more than one way to skin a cat and more to rugby than being able to hit the whole provided for you.
Any coach worth his salt will recognise if they have a weapon and holes in their backline and will devise a play to best exploit these. So if he has (hypothetically) a potentially deadly centre, a solid fullback, average halfback and below par flyhalf I can think of a plethora of plays off the top of my head which could play to backline this strengths. i.e off a scrum no. 8 picks up the ball passes to the 9 who is set wide who in turns hits the centre on the midfield crash.
On the other hand I would expect my gun centre in this situation to have more to his game than running. He should be able to defend, work the breakdown and given the chance be able to be an apt 1st receiver.
At this level almost every club would have a serviceable pivot anyway, so I think the excuse of 'I changed teams to play with players who can service me better, is pretty poor one'.
Perfect example of what i am talking about is Nic Cummins, might not have the greatest supporting act around him but he plays like a man possessed and is rightfully recognised for it.

 

[PlayedinHeaven]

I get your point TD to a certain extent, but not the best example, Cummins played up here first year out of school and struggled in an underperforming colts team, he had to move to sydney to get recognised. He was a great player who was overlooked up here because he had a poor team around him. he moved and was picked up the following year into the 7's. Unfortunatley, selectors will often neglect to go to the games played between cellar dwellers on the assumption that the teams doing the best have the better players. Not to say that you cant get picked up but you just have a better chance of exposure in a better team IMO.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

but on the other hand you have players like jesse mogg that played in awful club teams in brisbane but still got a gig playing super rugby?

 

[spectator]

but on the other hand you have players like jesse mogg that played in awful club teams in brisbane but still got a gig playing super rugby?

Did he not use his inititative to go the Bronco's for a year, then trundle himself off to ACT to play club, where indeed he did get noticed?

Mogg actually stood out in that Norths team, but he did have some schoolboy pedigree (AUS A in 2007) so was not a complete unknown. Maybe the likes of Chris Roche put in a good word for him and scouts came up and were impressed enough to want to see more of him in the off season?

 

[East Coast Aces]

Did he not use his inititative to go the Bronco's for a year, then trundle himself off to ACT to play club, where indeed he did get noticed?

Mogg actually stood out in that Norths team, but he did have some schoolboy pedigree (AUS A in 2007) so was not a complete unknown. Maybe the likes of Chris Roche put in a good word for him and scouts came up and were impressed enough to want to see more of him in the off season?

He is one of my favorite players now

 

[rugbywatch]

but on the other hand you have players like jesse mogg that played in awful club teams in brisbane but still got a gig playing super rugby?

You can hardly call that norths team awful.

Consisting of:
Mogg-Brumbies
Blair Connor- Bordeaux
Michael Bond- Biarritz
Carlos Gavidi- Alec Evans Medal Winner
Utu Maninoa- French Rugby
Andrew Rossiter- Australian 20s Trialist and Shute shield
Kesomi Lolotonga- Brumbies Academy & Australian 20s
Ray Stowers- Samoan International

I know they didn't win the comp, but far from an awful team.
But Mogg definetly stood out in the comp and it's starting to show in Super a rugby as well. Dark horse for a Wallaby jersey in 2013 to face the lions IMO

 

[thierry dusautoir]

It was awful becaus ealot of those players left 5 rounds in. But before that they would have won the comp

 

[ClubStalwart]

Stumbled across this video on YouTube of the Bulldogs. Not bad.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

was just on the easts rugby website having a look at photos and saw one pettowa paraka.....are we sure he is 18 because he is a monolith of a human, that bopper has to be at least 25 i want a bone density test.

 

[en_force_er]

was just on the easts rugby website having a look at photos and saw one pettowa paraka...are we sure he is 18 because he is a monolith of a human, that bopper has to be at least 25 i want a bone density test.

That is big. Is he any good?

I mean he's playing Bris Prems so he's obviously 'good' but I'm talking future Super Rugby good.

 

[tigerland12]

He gets around the park well for his size. This year I saw him decimate a few front rows, namely when he returned from u20's and came on after halftime against Brothers.

I think he is probably a bit short, the phrase "as wide as he is tall" is accurate for him. But being a loosehead, height isn't a bearing factor compared to tighthead.

He is in the National Academy and I think another year in Premier Rugby and with the Australian U20's, we will see if he can cut it. So far though, as an 18 year old, he has been impressive.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

I actually thopught he had quite a poor workratewhen i saw him T12, he can pack a scrum thoughbut the games i saw iof him i never really saw him decimate anyone. Gets the job doen but as you said needs another year to see where he is at but i think at the moment his size is the only thign that sets him apart from his age