Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
How do Scholarships increase Fees for those on full freight ?
Anyone ? Anyone ?
Anyone ? Anyone ?
QLD GPS Rugby 2021
- Thread starter Jets
- Start date
Mr Tank
Herbert Moran (7)
Seriously? What school did you go to; so I don’t send my kids there.
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Or you could just answer the question so I could explain to you how you are incorrect. But I guess if you wanted to do that you already would have. Resume position of head in sand. Cheerio.
Mr Tank
Herbert Moran (7)
Scholarships when paid for by external sources don't increase fees, that much is undeniable. But in a situation where a school is otherwise fully enrolled, and allocates places to students who are not paying fees, then fees for all other students rise. If you think there are no adverse impacts on costs from extra students attending I seriously don't know how much easier I can make that explanation for you.
For what it's worth, my name is Anthony Carroll, my father sits on the board of the Gregory Terrace Foundation and has done for a couple of decades. This is very reason the school foundation has been pushing back on wide ranging sporting scholarships, because the increased pressure on fees was becoming overwhelming. GT is no longer the lowest cost private school in the GPS, in part because of the significant number of scholarships they were offering - not just rugby, I believe they had more soccer scholarships than any other sport. GT has subsequently wound this back.
But please cite your sources when you explain to me how I am incorrect. And if there's any ambiguity here, there is at least one other poster here who can verify who I am.
For what it's worth, my name is Anthony Carroll, my father sits on the board of the Gregory Terrace Foundation and has done for a couple of decades. This is very reason the school foundation has been pushing back on wide ranging sporting scholarships, because the increased pressure on fees was becoming overwhelming. GT is no longer the lowest cost private school in the GPS, in part because of the significant number of scholarships they were offering - not just rugby, I believe they had more soccer scholarships than any other sport. GT has subsequently wound this back.
But please cite your sources when you explain to me how I am incorrect. And if there's any ambiguity here, there is at least one other poster here who can verify who I am.
BraveandGame
Bob Loudon (25)
For the record the recent increases in Fees at GT, relative to the other GPS schools, has much more to do with DMI and changes to funding at the Federal and State level than any scholarships being handed out.
Additionally the vast majority (some quote 100%) of merit students at GT pay fees in line with there capacity to pay, very few if any 'free rides' and even still, remain a very small % of the school population.
Thirdly most (notably not GT) GPS schools are not at at 100% capacity 'scholarship' holders are not taking the place of full fee paying students in 90+% of situations.
The one possible exception to this that does 'fit' you argument is IGS, who incidentally are the lowest fee GPS school, who have the highest rate of 'fee reduced' students per capita and many questions are and have been asked about the ongoing viability of their merit program.
You can make many arguments pro and con 'merit programs' (which we can't do here) but impact on students fee structures really isn't one of them.
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
^Thanks for your reply Mr Tank , or Anthony , whatever you prefer . In simple terms , and with respect , I would suggest you are viewing this through a singular prism (being the Gregory Terrace experience) which doesn't equate to the broader reality.
Is Terrace really running at 100% occupancy ? Who knows. It has amongst the highest , if not the highest enrollment rate - I will give you that. The cynic in me tells me that this is heavily projected as part of a marketing schtick to keep people desperate to get in and playing the game earlier at the local parish to make sure that things are all tickety boo for Little Johnny in getting vouched for by Father Spirit Fingers. It could have something to do with the heavily subsidised cost of Cath Ed as to why a Catholic School is so appealing .....but then going one step further , there are those Catholic Schools that just have more panache and cache attached to them compared to others. And Terrace does seem to attract those who are socially ambitious in Briz Town to connect to the Power Catho elite. Hey ....I've had close friends who have wanted in at Terrace and it was pretty much like this (when it was suggested they might want to give generously to building funds or whatever else was the funding project de jour)
So I am seeing from your perspective , that, say , 15 to 20 kids per grade across all sports in the curriculum could cost $280K per year group or $1.5M , all up , per annum in Opportunity Revenue to the Top Line . This is of course assuming that you would be able to sell that seat at full freight. And I have been very very generous in this assumption by applying $16K foregone across 18 kids per grade from Grade 8 through to Grade 12.
I won't debate Financial Rationalism v "Catholic/Christian Compassion" but I would just make a side comment and say that allow a 50/50 application , which means , in the very basic rudimentary modelling (above ) it might cost the full payers $750k . Divide that burden by 1,800 students or say 1.5 students per family on average.
So if it is "overdone" at a school like Gregory Terrace that costs opportunity to the Top Line in those plausible rough numbers ........you will forgive me if I don't reach for my violin when families are looking to pick up "the burden" of say $600 per family. And costs are same / same in this basic example as you have the same number of students ........so it is able to be isolated to actual revenue v possible revenue if you sold extra seats at full freight
$600 ? Who cares . It's a boozy lunch. Nothing to get too ansty about.
Other Schools ....especially those with boarding houses and dealing with the modern day challenges of droughts , floods , pandemics have to adjust and think less rigidly , perhaps even less piously as well , and perhaps with a dash of humility thrown in for good measure , when they realise , that maybe everyone isn't banging down the door to come ....maybe not even in a heavily picked local catchment in the western suburbs where there is an abundance of choice within coo-eee.
So perhaps those schools need a different angle or perhaps multiple different angles and need to create and project a different or certain level of success to invigorate enrollments . This is the Wotif Enrollment Model. Put all your surplus seats up for sale and see what you can get as you build Incremental Revenue that you wouldn't have had anyway - that assists in dealing with your Fixed Costs , and in turn , in this reality of "type" of going concern ......helps keep fees down when they would otherwise need to rise.
This dichotomy in thinking is something that people who come out of the Terrace World of Educational or Fund Raising Admin have trouble with in accepting the reality of the alternate ( and I would suggest the alternate majority ) They think everything works the same way everywhere else . And it just doesn't . Myopic Catholic arrogance ? Who knows . But it is a little stroppy and short sighted to assume everything works the same way elsewhere when in the vast majority of the cases - it just doesn't.
One final note . I know of a number of different "enrollment trees" that continued to bear fruit long after the first seeds that were planted were gone , and added genuine cash millions for Schools that otherwise wouldn't have had that money. The Government money that comes with it too that I didn't even address.
So no sir, it is not as you and others may assert , a certain Dee O O Economics.........Voooooo Doooooo Economics. Depending on the situation , which I believe is more the majority than not , it is , just good business with no room for piety and fear based reaction.
Is Terrace really running at 100% occupancy ? Who knows. It has amongst the highest , if not the highest enrollment rate - I will give you that. The cynic in me tells me that this is heavily projected as part of a marketing schtick to keep people desperate to get in and playing the game earlier at the local parish to make sure that things are all tickety boo for Little Johnny in getting vouched for by Father Spirit Fingers. It could have something to do with the heavily subsidised cost of Cath Ed as to why a Catholic School is so appealing .....but then going one step further , there are those Catholic Schools that just have more panache and cache attached to them compared to others. And Terrace does seem to attract those who are socially ambitious in Briz Town to connect to the Power Catho elite. Hey ....I've had close friends who have wanted in at Terrace and it was pretty much like this (when it was suggested they might want to give generously to building funds or whatever else was the funding project de jour)
So I am seeing from your perspective , that, say , 15 to 20 kids per grade across all sports in the curriculum could cost $280K per year group or $1.5M , all up , per annum in Opportunity Revenue to the Top Line . This is of course assuming that you would be able to sell that seat at full freight. And I have been very very generous in this assumption by applying $16K foregone across 18 kids per grade from Grade 8 through to Grade 12.
I won't debate Financial Rationalism v "Catholic/Christian Compassion" but I would just make a side comment and say that allow a 50/50 application , which means , in the very basic rudimentary modelling (above ) it might cost the full payers $750k . Divide that burden by 1,800 students or say 1.5 students per family on average.
So if it is "overdone" at a school like Gregory Terrace that costs opportunity to the Top Line in those plausible rough numbers ........you will forgive me if I don't reach for my violin when families are looking to pick up "the burden" of say $600 per family. And costs are same / same in this basic example as you have the same number of students ........so it is able to be isolated to actual revenue v possible revenue if you sold extra seats at full freight
$600 ? Who cares . It's a boozy lunch. Nothing to get too ansty about.
Other Schools ....especially those with boarding houses and dealing with the modern day challenges of droughts , floods , pandemics have to adjust and think less rigidly , perhaps even less piously as well , and perhaps with a dash of humility thrown in for good measure , when they realise , that maybe everyone isn't banging down the door to come ....maybe not even in a heavily picked local catchment in the western suburbs where there is an abundance of choice within coo-eee.
So perhaps those schools need a different angle or perhaps multiple different angles and need to create and project a different or certain level of success to invigorate enrollments . This is the Wotif Enrollment Model. Put all your surplus seats up for sale and see what you can get as you build Incremental Revenue that you wouldn't have had anyway - that assists in dealing with your Fixed Costs , and in turn , in this reality of "type" of going concern ......helps keep fees down when they would otherwise need to rise.
This dichotomy in thinking is something that people who come out of the Terrace World of Educational or Fund Raising Admin have trouble with in accepting the reality of the alternate ( and I would suggest the alternate majority ) They think everything works the same way everywhere else . And it just doesn't . Myopic Catholic arrogance ? Who knows . But it is a little stroppy and short sighted to assume everything works the same way elsewhere when in the vast majority of the cases - it just doesn't.
One final note . I know of a number of different "enrollment trees" that continued to bear fruit long after the first seeds that were planted were gone , and added genuine cash millions for Schools that otherwise wouldn't have had that money. The Government money that comes with it too that I didn't even address.
So no sir, it is not as you and others may assert , a certain Dee O O Economics.........Voooooo Doooooo Economics. Depending on the situation , which I believe is more the majority than not , it is , just good business with no room for piety and fear based reaction.
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Yes I can understand the angst coming from Terrace when you do relate this back to Rugby and consider their results from 2016 onwards when they went rogue but that didn't really start manifesting into the top end of the program until 2017 ?. Maybe things are different now and I know BAG is brimming with confidence about the current U14 Group . Or is it U15 ? Anyway all I am saying is you can't put it all on the DOR or the Coaches ....or you can if they were the ones at the Sales.
BraveandGame
Bob Loudon (25)
Can't have been the coach - he is off to greener (and I do mean greener) pastures at another GPS school for 2021
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Yes ....I see what you did there
A
Aussie Luke
Guest
Ah Terrace.
Some rugby greats to come out of there incl my uncle who played fly half for the Reds back on the 60s.
I used to love playing against my diametrically opposing colours, and the game was always played with great respect and good manners. The games against Churchie and Grammar on the other hand were filthy and filled with hate and animosity (all one direction coming at us Nudgee boys) It was "Belfast after midnight" type mongrel, which is where i assume their forefathers boarded their convict ships to still hold onto such hostility. I never lost a game to either Churchie nor Grammar, but I usually copped at least one off the ball punch in the back on the head and a few "dirty Mick" comments, which I didn't even understand at the time because my name isn't Michael!
All good fun, and I loved the rivalries, but good on the Terrace boys for their good manners and sportsmanship and hope we also reflected this when we played in the blue and white.
Good old Brisbane...beautiful one day, Belfast the next!
Some rugby greats to come out of there incl my uncle who played fly half for the Reds back on the 60s.
I used to love playing against my diametrically opposing colours, and the game was always played with great respect and good manners. The games against Churchie and Grammar on the other hand were filthy and filled with hate and animosity (all one direction coming at us Nudgee boys) It was "Belfast after midnight" type mongrel, which is where i assume their forefathers boarded their convict ships to still hold onto such hostility. I never lost a game to either Churchie nor Grammar, but I usually copped at least one off the ball punch in the back on the head and a few "dirty Mick" comments, which I didn't even understand at the time because my name isn't Michael!
All good fun, and I loved the rivalries, but good on the Terrace boys for their good manners and sportsmanship and hope we also reflected this when we played in the blue and white.
Good old Brisbane...beautiful one day, Belfast the next!
Black & White
Vay Wilson (31)
Hello Mr Tank
Although, I cannot quote a specific source other than everyday knowledge down here in Sydney, you would find that numerous independent schools, regarding their scholarships, have what would be called ,Trust Funds, administered separately and privately. Often they are set are up by a wealth benefactor, or are in "the will" of a late patron of the school. As such they pose no burden upon fee paying parents. Old boys, Parents and other sponsors such as a Church, make contributions according to their specific needs or objectives. More recently, sporting clubs have invested in these trusts, or sponsored a talent player to a particular school, at no cost to the school.
I am somewhat mystified that Gregory Terrace, would lack such financial acumen, as any busar or school accountant "worth their salt" would "hit upon this idea, as prudent financial management". So when you talk about an excessive burden upon fee paying parents, I cannot but wonder, as to the compency of Gregory Terrance in its financial affairs. Presuming what you have told us is accurate. If done professionally, an established fund or trust account, would be outside the day to day running of the school's general expenses and business affairs.
These funds can extend to building funds and at Ascham School, the late Kerry Packer had a building site named after him.Although, in this case I believe he donated the amount that covered the building in its entirety. Equally, sporting facilities such as grounds, can also be be included. So you cannot confine any discussion to just sporting scholarships, as they are just, one piece of any endowment directed towards a school.
So you might have a country boarding scholarship, together with academic or musical ones. Sporting scholarships would be, the smallest in numbers on offer. Often, they are not called "Sporting Scholarships" but holistic in their award. and named after the benefactor. This broadens the social base of a school, permitting boys of merit to be given a first class education, they might otherwise couldn't afford. Hence, they raise the standards of a school, that has a roll on effect throughout a school.
By the way Eton College has some 20% of it's boys on full scholarship, source their website some 3 years ago.If its good enough for the Poms, its good enough for us Aussies.
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
To note, the Sydney market would be what ? 2.5x the size of the Brisbane market ? And then add the greater ratio of “big wank / heavy hitter” otherwise known as Sir Knight down South. Private School
Businesses are wired very differently down there given the different dynamics around volume of bucks compared to this market.
I guess a recently departed Head (add prefix or affix depending on your view) will have plenty of time to reflect on this. The back up band too.
Businesses are wired very differently down there given the different dynamics around volume of bucks compared to this market.
I guess a recently departed Head (add prefix or affix depending on your view) will have plenty of time to reflect on this. The back up band too.
Oracle83
Bill McLean (32)
Man your bitter - letup and let us get back to rugby - Happy Easter !!
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Lets. It is a boring and irrelevant discussion relating to Rugby even if the Courier Mail writes that influential old boys are trying to turn their Schools into Rugby Academies as was reported earlier this week.
Who have you got 1 to 9 this year ?
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Nothing there Gidgee Gidgee Goo.......might be something worth talking about if you have any specific information as to how many Colts are getting paid ? Possibly helpful info for ambitious young soon to be School Leavers who have aspirations and think they should be paid for it. And which Club? The grass isn't always greener in these blue sky dreams
But this is the GPS 2021 season thread GGG......who do you like ? If not 1 - 9 but at least in the Top 3 Spots ?
I am going to go with
BBC
NC
TSS
Churchie
BSHS
IGS
TGS
GT
BGS
BBC and NC most returning players. BBC play NC and TSS away so will be tough ask, but just maybe after drought being broken last year BBC might be able to go back to back in front of crowds.
However could easily see a joint premiership as could be an upset or two.
TSS play NC in round 8 at home. That could be a key game as well
BBC
NC
TSS
Churchie
BSHS
IGS
TGS
GT
BGS
BBC and NC most returning players. BBC play NC and TSS away so will be tough ask, but just maybe after drought being broken last year BBC might be able to go back to back in front of crowds.
However could easily see a joint premiership as could be an upset or two.
TSS play NC in round 8 at home. That could be a key game as well
I think it could go either way this year, NC and BBC both have a lot of boys returning and TSS won’t be easy beats. Here are my top 3
1BBC
2NC
3TSS
I expect BSHS would be massive improvers this year and expect them to beat at least 1 of the top 3
BGS might also surprise a few this year also, as pointed out already they were relatively competitive last year before injuries hit.
IGS have always carried the giant killers tag so they should be there abouts also.
1BBC
2NC
3TSS
I expect BSHS would be massive improvers this year and expect them to beat at least 1 of the top 3
BGS might also surprise a few this year also, as pointed out already they were relatively competitive last year before injuries hit.
IGS have always carried the giant killers tag so they should be there abouts also.
Dean Moriarty
Billy Sheehan (19)
Yeah can’t argue much with this , although , I have BSHS in at 4th over Churchie