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Plumtree has a whinge

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PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
What valid point does he have? Where's the evidence that SA derbies are more intense than the others?
Its not just about intense, its about quantity. We do it twice as many as your lot plus we have a Vodacom competition aswell. Its just to many derbies fitted into one year. We have our CC which is fine, we had the S14 which works well , so they changed it to the stupid S15 with more derbies and a stupid business end which make no sense. No team play the same opposition.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
In terms of derby games last year, the bottom teams in Aus and NZ put up more resistance than in SA.


Brumbies: 2 Wins, 1 Draw ...... Chiefs Hurricanes (Draw-Force) Reds Rebels
Rebels: 2 Wins ...... Brumbies Force Hurricanes

Chiefs: 2 Wins 1 Draw ......Rebels Sharks Lions Landers Blues (Draw-Canes)
Canes: 1 Win 2 Draws ......(Draw-Crusaders) Chiefs Cheeetahs Reds Force Lions (Draw-Chiefs)

Cheetahs: 1 Win ...... Waratahs Brumbies Lions Crusaders Rebels
Lions: 1 Win 1 Draw ...... Cheetahs Brumbies Highlanders (Draw-Sharks)


The Cheetahs and Lions were free points to the top SA teams (only took one derby win each - off each other and a draw from the Shorks).
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
In terms of derby games last year, the bottom teams in Aus and NZ put up more resistance than in SA.


Brumbies: 2 Wins, 1 Draw ...... Chiefs Hurricanes (Draw-Force) Reds Rebels
Rebels: 2 Wins ...... Brumbies Force Hurricanes

Chiefs: 2 Wins 1 Draw ......Rebels Sharks Lions Landers Blues (Draw-Canes)
Canes: 1 Win 2 Draws ......(Draw-Crusaders) Chiefs Cheeetahs Reds Force Lions (Draw-Chiefs)

Cheetahs: 1 Win ...... Waratahs Brumbies Lions Crusaders Rebels
Lions: 1 Win ...... Cheetahs Brumbies Highlanders


The Cheetahs and Lions were free points to the top SA teams (only took one derby win each - off each other).
OK I see what you try to do, the weak Cheetahs beat the Tahs at home. If they played in the Aus Conferense they would be second behind the Reds.

2012 will have the same thing. Reds run away with your conferense and have easy games to top the log.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
Plumtree's whinge is about DERBIES. Derbies were the most one-sided in ..... South Africa.



mgQDg.gif
Cheetahs fluked some big name wins on the road. Good luck to them. They still finish 10th or lower every year.
 

JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
It doesn't help that the saffa media feed the idea that saffa derbies are more intense than ours. Close-fought, low-scoring Aussie derbies are "bore-a-thons" or "dismal" or possibly "dour", while saffa derbies with the same sort of score are usually "arm-wrestles" or "tense" or "battles".

I'm mostly thinking of planetrugby/rugby365 and keo there. If I knew a better source of saffa rugby news I'd follow that instead.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Plumtree's whinge is about DERBIES. Derbies were the most one-sided in ..... South Africa.



mgQDg.gif
Cheetahs fluked some big name wins on the road. Good luck to them. They still finish 10th or lower every year.
Dont agree OuBoet, its not about every year, conferense system was last year and their 10th was still better then three of your conferense five teams in 2011.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
It doesn't help that the saffa media feed the idea that saffa derbies are more intense than ours. Close-fought, low-scoring Aussie derbies are "bore-a-thons" or "dismal" or possibly "dour", while saffa derbies with the same sort of score are usually "arm-wrestles" or "tense" or "battles".

I'm mostly thinking of planetrugby/rugby365 and keo there. If I knew a better source of saffa rugby news I'd follow that instead.
Thats the thing about derbies. The coaches of all the franchises know they just have to win them (SA teams have more pressure try to survive) and their first aim is to top their conferense to get in the finals. This mean more dour matches and surely why Plumtree critizise it.
 

MajorlyRagerly

Trevor Allan (34)
If the yarp teams choose to bash seven shades of shit out of each other, thats their problem. If they get 46,000 people in watching, that's their joy, well done to them. But if they think their style of rugby isn't conducive to winning s15 titles... please.

If you want to win, be the best team in teh knockout stages. You have a guaranteed team int eh knockout stages these days right? It's just the simple.

As for Plumtree, he's like Quade Cooper. Was a shit hot bloke til he left NZ....
 
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spooony

Guest
I do not know why Plumtree is moaning because the Sharks do not have traditional rivals. No one mind losing to them as they always surprised.

But WP/Stormers vs The Bulls/Old NTVL have been a rivalry been coming on for almost a hundred years. Hundred years of hate and tradition goes into them because it will always be remembered or talked about by the country. It was a religion in many houses, every saturday afternoon the currie cup was blaring on the tv. from naas botha skopping every team to pieces, the EP team that klapped everyone and the naked streaker that put a great tackle on FC Smit. Now compare that to lets say Brumbies vs the Force. When were those franchises created and how many years of rivalry are behind them? Sure it is a derby a local game but there is no 100 years of hate between them like you would get with a Bulls vs Stormers game. You will never get a empty stadium of a stadium not filled to capacity whenever they meet. Both sets of players gets into it and wnat to kill each other on the pitch so to speak and pushing and shoving is the order of the day.

So intense it is not really about toughness of the players. It is just that rivalry and history behind certain local derbies which has been won with blood sweat and tears.
 
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Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Want to make the super rugby finals? Win at least half of your derbies, then smoke all the easy Oz/NZ teams on tour and at your home ground. Guaranteed finals spot.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
Dont agree OuBoet, its not about every year, conferense system was last year and their 10th was still better then three of your conferense five teams in 2011.
Yes, in 2011 you are right about three teams, Boet. Good luck and good luck to the Cheetahs. They had a good season by their standards and an unusual number of bonus points (12) allowed the Cheetahs to go ahead with 5 wins - even though the Force had 5 wins and 2 draws.

But over all the years of super rugby, SA teams, especially Cheetahs and Lions, have 'dominated' the bottom of the log. Even in 2011, they were meat for the derby games in South Africa.
 

JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
So intense it is not really about toughness of the players. It is just that rivalry and history behind certain local derbies which has been won with blood sweat and tears.

Yeah, I guess that's fair enough. Qld vs NSW is the closest we have to that sort of rivalry, and it sounds like it's a fair way off. The reds also seem to have a bit of a grudge against the force for pinching some of their players, but as far as rivalry goes that's not much chop. It doesn't help much that a) most of our states have a history of getting along ok and b) most of our players come from Qld or NSW, regardless of who they're playing for.

Must've been a real kick in the teeth for Bulls supporters then when Habana up and moved to Stormertown. Not as much as if he were still in form though. ;)
 
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spooony

Guest
Yes, in 2011 you are right, Boet. Good luck and good luck to the Cheetahs. They had a good season by their standards and an unusual number of bonus points (12) allowed the Cheetahs to go ahead with 5 wins - even though the Force had 5 wins and 2 draws.

But over all the years of super rugby, SA teams, especially Cheetahs and Lions, have 'dominated' the bottom of the log. Even in 2011, they were meat for the derby games in South Africa.
But they were entertaining to watch weren't they. When they go down they go down 45 - 36 or that match against the Chiefs which was something like 70 something to 65. They got their bonus points for scoring tries and they had nothing to lose so they threw the ball around a lot. Freestate always have a young side who can beat any team on their day. They were traditionally canon fodder but the Lions have a Super 10 title after their name and the Cats made a few semi final appearances something some of the other sides can not claim


Yeah, I guess that's fair enough. Qld vs NSW is the closest we have to that sort of rivalry, and it sounds like it's a fair way off. The reds also seem to have a bit of a grudge against the force for pinching some of their players, but as far as rivalry goes that's not much chop. It doesn't help much that a) most of our states have a history of getting along ok and b) most of our players come from Qld or NSW, regardless of who they're playing for.

Must've been a real kick in the teeth for Bulls supporters then when Habana up and moved to Stormertown. Not as much as if he were still in form though. ;)
Players who switch sides are surprisingly not that hated. Bulls have a tradition of grabbing young flyhalfs from the Cape and turn them into 3 point machines. Derrick Hougaardt Morne Steyn as well. Bulls supporters will always love Habana for some of the good things he did but he will hear it when he plays against them and he gets nailed or drop the ball etc etc. But a guy who we hated was Naas Botha. One thing is he always kicked liked shit when he came to Newlands. One thing though we always hated playing against Freestate. That Freestate stadium were almost a gravel road cause of the dead grass. In the winter the grass die and dry out very quickly which leaves you playing on half grass half sand. The players always left there with raw knees and elbows thanks to some grass burns. They were the reason we did not win the 1989 Currie cup. They broke Calla Scholtz's leg which was WP sharp shooter and he would have gotten the winning kick in this games. Just have a look at the last kick of the game to win the match lol

 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
But over all the years of super rugby, SA teams, especially Cheetahs and Lions, have 'dominated' the bottom of the log. Even in 2011, they were meat for the derby games in South Africa.
Ag nee Boetie, we just have to agree to disagree. No team in SA against SA teams are meat for another at home. Thats the differense CC do to us, even to beat Griquas at the Groot Gat is not easy. They kicked the Brutes out of their semi spot last year, Sharks also got one huge hiding there in 2010.

SA derby matches in 2011:

Stormers 16 19 Vodacom Bulls
Stormers 32 12 Sharks
Stormers 21 15 Toyota Cheetahs
Stormers 19 16 MTN Lions
Sharks 23 32 Vodacom Bulls
Sharks 27 3 MTN Lions
Sharks 6 16 Stormers
Sharks 24 9 Toyota Cheetahs
Vodacom Bulls 23 26 Sharks
Vodacom Bulls 32 21 Toyota Cheetahs
Vodacom Bulls 30 23 MTN Lions
Vodacom Bulls 13 23 Stormers
Toyota Cheetahs 34 44 Stormers
Toyota Cheetahs 18 23 Sharks
Toyota Cheetahs 20 25 MTN Lions
Toyota Cheetahs 23 25 Vodacom Bulls
MTN Lions 30 30 Sharks
MTN Lions 19 53 Toyota Cheetahs
MTN Lions 19 33 Stormers
MTN Lions 20 24 Vodacom Bulls

Aus Derbies:
Brumbies 32 - 17 Melbourne Rebels
Brumbies 25 - 31 Reds
Brumbies 22 - 29 Waratahs
Brumbies 19 - 27 Western Force
Melbourne Rebels 25 - 24 Brumbies
Melbourne Rebels 18 - 33 Reds
Melbourne Rebels 0 - 43 Waratahs
Melbourne Rebels 24 - 27 Western Force
Reds 14 - 22 Brumbies
Reds 53 - 3 Melbourne Rebels
Reds 19 - 15 Waratahs
Reds 21 - 20 Western Force
Waratahs 41 - 7 Brumbies
Waratahs 28 - 9 Melbourne Rebels
Waratahs 30 - 6 Reds
Waratahs 20 - 15 Western Force
Western Force 13 - 13 Brumbies
Western Force 25 - 26 Melbourne Rebels
Western Force 21 - 24 Reds
Western Force 3 - 31 Waratahs

If you look at the point differense in SA derbies games at home:

Stormers +26
Sharks +20
Bulls 5
Cheetahs -22
Lions -52
The biggest differense
MTN Lions 19 53 Toyota Cheetahs
(Thats the two bottom teams)

Aus derbies at home:
Waratahs 82
Reds 47
Brumbies -6
Western Force -32
Melbourne Rebels -60

and you sure as hell can see what differense there was between the two conferenses. One hell of a gap between 82 and -60 = 142 and -52 and 26 = 76.
 
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spooony

Guest
But you got to expect them to perform poor in the first few seasons as the Force and Rebels are new teams. Then does Queensland or NSW compete in a domestic competition against each other like we do in the Currie Cup?
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
But you got to expect them to perform poor in the first few seasons as the Force and Rebels are new teams. Then does Queensland or NSW compete in a domestic competition against each other like we do in the Currie Cup?
Obvious the reasons why Plumtree is spot on about our Conferense much tougher then the Aus conferense. Throw in the Kings 2013 entry and 2012 will be much tougher in SA. The other 4 SA franchises will have it much easier in 2013. Garantued 5 point start like Aus had with the Rebels in 2011.
 
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spooony

Guest
Obvious the reasons why Plumtree is spot on about our Conferense much tougher then the Aus conferense. Throw in the Kings 2013 entry and 2012 will be much tougher in SA. The other 4 SA franchises will have it much easier in 2013. Garantued 5 point start like Aus had with the Rebels in 2011.
EP play in the first devision of the Currie Cup. They could not even beat the weaken Currie Cup sides when the Super 15 was on last year. What are the chances they are going to do anything but get thrashed week in week out by full strength franchises? I think the Kings are a mahalla 5 pointer. They have been trying to develop EP and Border for ages and they got nowhere. It is really sad that they are trying all angles to push their politics into sports.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Spooony is the Botes who missed the conversion from Transvaal related to the guy who's playing for Italy or it's just one of those really common SA names?

I think with Argentina's introduction into the rugby championship it's not too much of a stretch to Argentina clubs entering Super rugby in the next 5 years or so. Then there will be a completely new format for people to complain about.
 
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spooony

Guest
Spooony is the Botes who missed the conversion from Transvaal related to the guy who's playing for Italy or it's just one of those really common SA names?

I think with Argentina's introduction into the rugby championship it's not too much of a stretch to Argentina clubs entering Super rugby in the next 5 years or so. Then there will be a completely new format for people to complain about.
Are you referring to Riaan Gouws who missed the conversion in that video I posted above there?
 
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