NSW Schools -Trial Games and Selections 2010

[Lee Grant]

Seems like the NSW selectors picked those they thought were good players regardless of the team they played in.

That's how it should be I suppose, but sometimes there is a hard to pick ability for some players to play in a team way and if they come together in a school or a school group and the teams they play for show a strong team ability, then those players should get clipboard marks for that attribute.

It's the same in senior rugby. I thought the RWC 2003 England forwards were good individually but their ability to combine in all aspects of forward play was remarkable. They made restarts and mauls look like set pieces and they even chimed into breakdowns by the numbers.

As I said: it's an attribute that's hard to pick. In the case of the 2003 England team it was a process of discarding players of the previous 2 years who were less good in that area, or not so coachable. That process can never apply to the selection of state schools teams; nevertheless I think the NSW Is team will miss not having the teamwork of the GPS Is pack.

It's the opposite story in the backs: NSW Is has retained all the ISA backs as a unit, except that Hulme from GPS is on one wing. This is less objectionable as the ISA backs were in raging form against CHS; but they had good ball that day. One can only wonder what this same backline would do behind the GPS pack.

The midfield of Purcell and Hingano is a dynamite pairing with good ball, which they didn't get against CAS, but you could argue that the GPS pairing of Apo and Ingate was unlucky not to be chosen instead. Perhaps the selectors have done the right think in keeping the ISA backline intact (almost); though with different selectors in a parallel universe they could have been intact for the Twos instead of the Ones.

One thing for sure: there was no value in breaking up either midfield.

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[Lee Grant]

OK Lee - whats the drum on the wingers and fullback?
I got a call from a 'friend' who said that NSW were a bit light in this regard but I don't believe that for one minute.

Your friend was right. IIRR I posted that the candidates for the back 3 were average ie average by NSW Schools standards which have not been high in recent years as you know.

I think the selectors have done best with the back 3 selections though I agree with Chosen that the selectors could have made a bold decision on gone with Clark (son of Greg) at fullback in the Ones. I didn't know that he still had a year to go at school; so that could be the reason as he indicated. Lenehan of View and GPS will be miffed to miss out on both teams as he played well in the two GPS games.

As for the guys actually selected:

15. Keary has played well but is probably a league player who will play that code when he is older. Others have said that he was with the Eels and wasn't good enough and is now with the Manly Sea Eagles playing halfback or five eighth. He's looked pretty good in the trials but probably lacks a bit of top end speed.

14. Hulme is a good footie player who is fast enough without being a flyer. In Super14 terms he is probably similar in type to Pat McCabe or Basil Rathbone.

11. Smith looks like a smart finisher and pretty quick but I don't know a lot about him.

I haven't seen Crooks from Queensland play but my guess is that he will do a bit of damage confronting these three.

Maybe others who know them better could add something here.


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[rugbywhisperer]

I haven't seen Crooks from Queensland play but my guess is that he will do a bit of damage confronting these three.
Maybe others who know them better could add something here..

I will leave that for others to make comment but I am sure you may be on the right path.

 

[pitbull]

I have a feeling that the 2nds side will run all over the 1s. Ones tight five is certainly more impressive (with millar and roach), yet there back rowers will be annialated by the 2s side (conner etc.). Donlan/wylie combo to work well again, aswell as apo and ingate. Cam clark also really really unlucky, aswell as fine has only once been shown up in the times ive watched him (which was by the apolosi/ingate duo)

 

[catchpole]

Lee,

I am aware of one of the selectors for CAS. This person has impeccable Rugby credentials, is not aligned with any particular school and is not a coach of any team. The perfect independent selector.

Are the selectors for NSW Schools mostly coaches of various School teams, Representative sides or aligned with particular associations?

 

[Wrinkled Rat]

I have a feeling that the 2nds side will run all over the 1s. Ones tight five is certainly more impressive (with millar and roach), yet there back rowers will be annialated by the 2s side (conner etc.). Donlan/wylie combo to work well again, aswell as apo and ingate. Cam clark also really really unlucky, aswell as fine has only once been shown up in the times ive watched him (which was by the apolosi/ingate duo)

Not so sure about a walk over as I doubt they will ever meet but I think there are two quite separate game plans that the coaches will run in the 1's and 2's. I am not saying that the cattle in one is better than the other, other than my prior post on Brisby and Killingworth but I actually see it as Plan A and B to take on the Nationals. Plan A is coached to Pappa's formula (never ever kick), B is more of the traditional purists game that GPS and CAS play (box kick, rolling mauls, field position) Both are effective but I know which one I'd prefer to watch. Also not saying that this year is better or worse than last year, just a different methodolgy. Pappa will come out a hero or a villain, but full marks for taking the stance. Irrespective of the selectors, there were 12 of the Auggies first XV named in the two squads plus shadows and one of the three omitted (Ben Paul who I rate in Ben Black's class) stood down voluntarily to focus on his HSC, Pappa knows his rugby.

 

[rugby_man]

As the days tick over, I'm starting to think that there is no NSW I or NSW II. As has been the topic of discussion the past few days, a lot of people seem to think that the two teams were not selected on who performed best in the trials but that the two sides are picked on style of play. It's taken a couple of days to sink in but I think it's a great idea. It gives us the chance to see how different styles of play cope with the other. I don't believe for one second that the boys in NSW I are better than the boys in NSW II. They all deserve credit for getting themselvs there in the first place and it's going to be fascinating to see who comes out on top after the National Championships are done. Looking at the bench for NSW I, they look much stronger than the NSW II bench. Asipeli Fine could count himself unlucky for not getting a spot in one of the two starting sides but you can't fault the selectors for going with combinations.

 

[Lee Grant]

Lee,

I am aware of one of the selectors for CAS. This person has impeccable Rugby credentials, is not aligned with any particular school and is not a coach of any team. The perfect independent selector.

Are the selectors for NSW Schools mostly coaches of various School teams, Representative sides or aligned with particular associations?

I don't know as I am just a rugby tragic with no inside info; but it's good to see that CAS used at least one independent selector. It's the way to go provided that there are enough good people to recruit for the job on an honorary basis.

I am certain that both NSW teams were chosen in good faith. I have mentioned a few anomalies in the teams but that is neither here nor there - there are always anomalies.

It's not as though these schools teams play each other on a regular basis and we get to see them week in and week out on TV. Even with the selections for the Wallabies we think there are anomalies after watching a season of S14; so it's no wonder that we see a few when combined schools teams play just 2 or 3 games in the trials. We may know the players of a particular school very well, but we are lucky to see the players from other schools very often for their schools.

One thing I thought was a bit odd though was what observer mentioned on this link:

http://www.nswschoolsrugby.rugbynet.com.au/default.asp?id=164355

I don't think it's a good look to have the selector of the team who is the coach of a (recent) rugby powerhouse even if the individual is as highly regarded as John Papahatzis is.

I wish NSW Schools and Oz Schools rugby had more people like him, (50 would be good), but it's the kind of appointment that was likely to be questioned even months ago when it was made.

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[Lee Grant]

Wrinkled Rat and rugby man - very astute comments. Apart from certain positions (like 2. Roach and 3. Millar, who are likely Oz Schools Ones starters), you wouldn't be too surprised if most of the other 13 of NSW Is were picked for the NSW IIs, and vice versa.

I liked this bit W Rat: Also not saying that this year is better or worse than last year, just a different methodolgy. Pappa will come out a hero or a villain, but full marks for taking the stance.

I have a feeling that the 2nds side will run all over the 1s.

If you mean the NSW Twos will beat the NSW Ones, they don't play each unless they both make the final - unless they have changed the tournament schedule this year.

 

[Wrinkled Rat]

Lee, as a chap that shares an afternoon at rat park, how would you rate the following Colts side next year? I remember someone posting it on Sportal and wrote it down;

1 Laitae Folifili
2 Tim Reid / Tom Kaufman
3 Moses Keresi
4 Benn Melrose
5 Jordan Reid
6 George Kent
7 Boyd Killingworth
8 James Dargevile
9 Tim Donlan
10 Ed Whylie / Mitchell Trim
11 Ben Askew
12 Mitchell Trim/ Ed Whylie
13 Josh Macormack
14 Matt White
15 Baden Donegal

Apart from dargaville, this was the rats U16 NSW undefeated state champs, a lot of the other Auggies boys may head to manly, won't get a run..

 

[AussieDominance]

Doubt you will see McCormack, Kent, Melrose, Reid & possibly Wylie in the Rats colours....

 

[Lee Grant]

Have Gordon poached them already AD?

It would be good to have the majority of those players, wouldn't it? I may go to a few Colts games if that lot were all Rats, but typically they're not at the same park as the senior players.

No doubt a few will end up wearing jerseys with dark blue and yellow stripes.

 

[AussieDominance]

Have Gordon poached them already AD?

It would be good to have the majority of those players, wouldn't it? I may go to a few Colts games if that lot were all Rats, but typically they're not at the same park as the senior players.

No doubt a few will end up wearing jerseys with dark blue and yellow stripes.

Gordon far from it LG. I would expect Easts & Eastwood to be in with a chance. As well as as you said Sydney Uni.

Gordon is one of the last clubs I would expect.

Just remember they are all from the country bar Melrose.

 

[Wrinkled Rat]

Gordon far from it LG. I would expect Easts & Eastwood to be in with a chance. As well as as you said Sydney Uni.

Gordon is one of the last clubs I would expect.

Just remember they are all from the country bar Melrose.

I expect all the Kings lads to stay in the city and attend Uni, Benny wasn't flavour of the month at home when he left Parra to play at the rats but he and Tim Donlan are great mates and regulary make the trip across the bridge to catch up with the boys on the peninsula. I'd say if (and it's a big if) there are no money and or scholarships bandied around, their heart will be at Warringah. Macqueen took a special interest in them back then, still does.

 

[AussieDominance]

I expect all the Kings lads to stay in the city and attend Uni, Benny wasn't flavour of the month at home when he left Parra to play at the rats but he and Tim Donlan are great mates and regulary make the trip across the bridge to catch up with the boys on the peninsula. I'd say if (and it's a big if) there are no money and or scholarships bandied around, their heart will be at Warringah. Macqueen took a special interest in them back then, still does.

You would think Melrose although his old man is gone now has a strong RECENT connection at Eastwood. One thing that get's underestimated though is that if these blokes are wanting to live anywhere most of them would choose the city thus clubs like Easts, Sydney Uni, Randwick, Norths have a natural advantage in providing relocation packages.

 

[Lee Grant]

Surely the lure of living in God's country on the Northern Beaches will win a few over.

They'll all go to the city? Tell me it ain't so.

 

[charcoal]

Selections

I believe the NSW teams are stronger this year with strong competition for most positions, but could someone explain to me why ISA forwards fared so well in selections. In their only real test against determined opposition they were thoroughly outplayed by the CAS pack, unable to provide enough opportunities for their star studded backline to dominate as expected. Yet in all positions except Goodmans, the ISA player was preferred. Alexander must have been close to best on ground but Kauffman was preferred as were the ISA props. Why no place could be found in either squad for the CAS 2nd rowers, after strong showings in their 3 games, is beyond me.
I assume "no discussion will be entered into" because they would have difficulty justifying these selections with any logic. It seems the ISA dominated selection panel have preferred the players they are familiar with over those who have done the job in their only opportunity in front of them. They have totally disregarded that game, which is totally unfair.
AND surely these selectors are alone in not rating Cameron Clarke as one of the top two fullbacks around

 

[catchpole]

Wrinkled Rat & Rugby Man,

I have been thinking about your propositions that the two NSW Schools Teams represent different philosophies on style of play (Game Plans) rather than different selection opinions.

Running Rugby is a thrilling spectacle and close to the heart of all Australian Rugby supporters. However does Papa believe that his selections are the only players in the NSW Schools System that can play to his style/plan.

Presumably he would have know about his appointment as NSW Schools Coach some time ago and could have scouted a wider selection of talent prior to the NSW Schools Selection Trials

I also understand the concept of:"if it ain't broke don't fix it" but surely this stance is exceptionally one dimensional. To the outsider it appears that he is micro-managing a selection that he developed months ago before the NSW Schools Trial.

I wish him and the two NSW Schools Teams every success at the National Championship for which he only has a week to prepare.

The apparent unilateral approach to the formation of the NSW Schools 1st XV Team is what sits most uncomfortably with me.

 

[observer]

I'm hearing Gerard McCallum bench 5/8 in 2's has withdrawn after being selected in NSW CHS Rugby league team to contest their nationals in Burleigh QLD next month. Shadow players for this position who may get a call-up are Stuart Dunbar, Scots College and Mitchell Trim, St Augustine's. Shadow squad here http://www.nswschoolsrugby.rugbynet.com.au/default.asp?id=169736

My retired friend who lives at Paddington often goes for his daily walk down to Moore Park. He usually stops for a breather at Loop Oval and catches the Waratahs and Roosters training. Yesterday he saw a backline practising their moves in an opposed session and was so impressed by the precision, intensity and pace of the players concerned he asked one of the officials what team he was watching. NSW Schools 2's was the response.

 

[Wrinkled Rat]

I'm hearing Gerard McCallum bench 5/8 in 2's has withdrawn after being selected in NSW CHS Rugby league team to contest their nationals in Burleigh QLD next month. Shadow players for this position who may get a call-up are Stuart Dunbar, Scots College and Mitchell Trim, St Augustine's. Shadow squad here http://www.nswschoolsrugby.rugbynet.com.au/default.asp?id=169736

My retired friend who lives at Paddington often goes for his daily walk down to Moore Park. He usually stops for a breather at Loop Oval and catches the Waratahs and Roosters training. Yesterday he saw a backline practising their moves in an opposed session and was so impressed by the precision, intensity and pace of the players concerned he asked one of the officials what team he was watching. NSW Schools 2's was the response.

They opposed each other on Friday (GPS2's v ISA2's) GPS won convincingly. Given that it is the NSW 2's they will opt for Dunbar, if it were the NSW 1's it would have been Trim. He plays out of postiion at Auggies at # 15 with Pappa favouring Brisby.