NSW JRU State Championships & Representative Teams 2014

[sarcophilus]

I appreciate the statistics that are being trotted out and understand that to some extent are correct, they can all tell the story we want when worded and presented with careful editing.

"kids who might not presently have the aspiration but who, based on the stats, are the most likely to be the elite adult rugby players."
which stats are you relying on. If it is the 54% of players playing for The Wallabies that did not play Australian school boys. that does not suggest that 54% didn't make their state or district or school association rep teams. It just speaks of Australian Schoolboys. Once those other levels of rep opportunities are added to the calculation you may find your majority shrunk to less the 10%. I doubt that there would be significant difference in the numbers that took up rugby after juniors and the number that did not make rep teams in juniors or school 1stXV both scores I think would be sitting in thier own special place on a Venn diagram (i am not sure a bell chart would work here)

The stats relating to reps from particular junior clubs is also easy to misread or misrepresent. I don't know the numbers of players at each of the clubs, though if one club has 4x the number of players they are likely to have a greater proportion of rep players than a single team club. in my experience it is the clubs that make up 10% of the player population and regularly attract 40% of the rep positions that can be more questionable

the exclusive nature of development programs at village club level is disappointing but any association has the right to make the rules to suit their own affiliates.

 

[Boof]

Anyone have any inside information on the Country 15's & 17's Zone Teams?

Given the number of regional NSW JGC Centres, the country zone teams in these age groups should be very well prepared for the State Champs, if they have retained their talent.

17s for Country Champs ( this weekend in Dubbo ) Hunter, Central North ( Norhern Inland JGC ), Illawarra, Central Coast, Central west and Far Norh Coast. Two zones have gone missing New England and Mid North Coast. I suspect due to JGC as NE and CN combined to make Norhern Inland and the same for MNC and FNC. So not a good result for those zones.

Team lists are not up on the Country Juniors page yet for what ever reason except for Central Coast.

Only one trial due to JGC with Hunter being fairly dominant over CC and CN even though they have a largely different team from last years campaign ( but basically the JGC side ), due to boys not playing any more, 3 to Sydney schools but a positive in having made way for some new faces.

Good luck to all boys, enjoy.

 

[Boof]

Several in the programs I know of and many more trialling way back in November.
What is your definition of a dual coder? I ask because someone who plays league and then flits in for JGS is not, in my view, a dual coder.
I have no issue with kids who play loig and union provided they do the latter in village club rugby.
That was my real point: the ARU should support village clubs by only selecting kids into JGC who are playing village club rugby - wherever they go to school.

Plays both codes at club level.

 

[Druid]

Most districts have 1-2 clubs which dominate that district and many players will gravitate to those 1-2 dominate clubs. However, for the State Championships I would question, given the decline of the player numbers across Sydney the districts still make sense from a competitive side.

For example in the Under 11s Gordon (and I have only picked Gordon because they were mentioned above, I could have equally picked some of the beaches districts), current have 15 teams (5 teams in the A,B & C comps), Parramatta (again could have used a number of Western or Southern districts) has 2 teams (in the D & G comps).

In the Under 12s Gordon has 15 teams (7 teams in the A,B & C comps), Parramatta has 1 team (in the D comp).

In the Under 13s Gordon has 11 teams (6 teams in the A,B & C comps), Parramatta has 1 team (in the C comp).

Given the above examples, if Parramatta even have a rep team in these age groups, it is very much particpation and not representative players. in the Under 12s for instance you have a "D" grade side playing against the cream of "A" graders (if this was replicated in the standard Sunday competition there would be calls of "Duty of Care", unfairness etc. etc.). Is it a good thing to have a State Championships where the districts are so far out of alignment that there will be many "uncompetitive" lopsided games (without even mentioning they will also play a state based ACT Brumbies side)? What incentive is there for the smaller districts to even compete? Then if the district does not then run a team, then the handful of players which want to play rep Rugby have no alternative other than to move clubs & districts, strengthening those districts and weakening their home districts.

Is it not time we reconsider a "re-alignment" of the districts from a representative perspective to have a smaller number of districts (e.g. JGC, but with a few more districts) which are more aligned in player numbers and skill and create a truly competative competition which has a much greater benefit on ALL participants. Is there any benefit for a district full of "A" graders to wallop a district full of "D" grade players or below?

 

[Quick Hands]

And as someone who played in district rep teams in the 70s, which won 10 and 12s (champs were only in even ages then). Not one player from those teams went on to play 1st grade rugby. By contrast when we reached 14s and 16s new players had come to the game (no importing, just boys started play the game later or came from league), a couple of those guys did play 1st grade and 1 played Australian schools.

Picking rep teams in 10s and 11s is madness IMO. They don't even play on a full field with a full team. They should be learning the game and having fun, not satisfying the egos of adults who coach and manage these teams.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

"kids who might not presently have the aspiration but who, based on the stats, are the most likely to be the elite adult rugby players."
which stats are you relying on. If it is the 54% of players playing for The Wallabies that did not play Australian school boys. that does not suggest that 54% didn't make their state or district or school association rep teams. It just speaks of Australian Schoolboys. Once those other levels of rep opportunities are added to the calculation you may find your majority shrunk to less the 10%. I doubt that there would be significant difference in the numbers that took up rugby after juniors and the number that did not make rep teams in juniors or school 1stXV both scores I think would be sitting in thier own special place on a Venn diagram (i am not sure a bell chart would work here)

HJ posted the link to the academic paper that analysed not just oz schools who became wallabies but wallabies who were not oz schools or state players and also looked at s 15 franchises. I'm not contending for a linear relationship between playing district rep etc. it is only the overall picture that I am referring to: i.e. early success is not a good predictor of long term accomplishment.
The overall picture is that the very talented u16 year old is highly unlikely to be a wallaby or s15 player.
The data from the US looking at all sports confirms this general position: the book (not the movie) Moneyball explores in a little detail one way in which the Brad Pitt character leveraged those stats: he preferred to sign kids who had played college ball, as opposed to high school ball, because college ball involved the kids playing at a higher level, more often and against young adults of generally equal ability but certainly competent. It was therefore a much better indicator of likely long term success in the major leagues.
Anyway the point is by picking the best 10 year old to play in the state champs you alienate (sometimes imperceptibly) the next best kid or the worst kid who will turn out to be the bloke the Tahs/Reds etc need in 2024.
Keep them all in the game for as long as possible by providing just the right amount of healthy competition with very limited scope for heaping personal glory on the stars.

 

[rams]

Picking rep teams in 10s and 11s is madness IMO. They don't even play on a full field with a full team. They should be learning the game and having fun, not satisfying the egos of adults who coach and manage these teams.

Couldn't agree more, I have posted previously that we probably don't need to be looking at rep sides until 14's/15's.

 

[Hugie]

Interestingly Aristotle made the same observation about boys going onto compete in the Olympics.
I guess we need little more time to get the point.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Interestingly Aristotle made the same observation about boys going onto compete in the Olympics.
I guess we need little more time to get the point.

Remind me - who did he play for?

 

[Quick Hands]

Athens, I hear he was on a scholarship

 

[Hugie]

Kinda on a scholarship,
Phillip II drafted him onto the coaching staff of the Macedonian 1st XV (probably didn't use Roman numerals).
Phillip had got his son (Alexander) the captains position by using his influence with the selectors (I think he killed any that didn't select his son much as we do now).
Alexander then went on to Captain the all conquering Macedonian team that went on world tour.
Apparently Alex didn't pay much attention to Aristotles training (much in the same way Tony Abbott didn't pay any attention to Bruce Ross's economics training)

Just goes to show not much has changed in 2300 years.

 

[It is what it is]

Kinda on a scholarship,
Phillip II drafted him onto the coaching staff of the Macedonian 1st XV (probably didn't use Roman numerals).
Phillip had got his son (Alexander) the captains position by using his influence with the selectors (I think he killed any that didn't select his son much as we do now).
Alexander then went on to Captain the all conquering Macedonian team that went on world tour.
Apparently Alex didn't pay much attention to Aristotles training (much in the same way Tony Abbott didn't pay any attention to Bruce Ross's economics training)

Just goes to show not much has changed in 2300 years.

You forgot to mention the star fullback who was also by chance the Greek parachuting champion - Con Descendin

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You forgot to mention the star fullback who was also by chance the Greek parachuting champion - Con Descendin

who struggled prior to the introduction of the law preventing him from being touched while in the air

 

[tavytoo]

Anyone have any inside information on the Country 15's & 17's Zone Teams?

Given the number of regional NSW JGC Centres, the country zone teams in these age groups should be very well prepared for the State Champs, if they have retained their talent.

a lot of the talent is now at boarding school and expect some of the country boys may not be released to train and play if conflicts with school fixtures

 

[Slugga]

All up 91 boys have been selected and a staggering 43% came from one club and 26% from another. So almost 70% from two clubs, with the remaining 6 clubs fill the other 30% of selections.

Same point I’ve been making re 16’s. Chatswood with 14 of 17 players in the Gordon side, and the expectation of folding after reps. Hunters Hill/Mosman merger with an A side and C side (why?). In fact the only district not drawing the bulk of its players from the one club is Eastwood (Beecroft and Dural). This is not good for the game.

At club level you would think it’s about participation with a mix of talented and not so talented but what we have now is a de-facto district comp. I can’t see how this benefits rugby but if the SJRU want an elite A comp that’s fine as long as we have a level playing field and some transparency.

Which brings us to the state champs and the distinct lack of clarity over its purpose and role. Is it for selecting the Zone or part of the selection process for Sydney? Who knows? A good way to avoid accusations of bias would be to define the process by which selections are made.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I can’t see how this benefits rugby but if the SJRU want an elite A comp that’s fine as long as we have a level playing field and some transparency.

What's not level or transparent about it? what do you want to see by this transparency and what rule do you want to stop kids playing where they want to play?
The kids in C's do not want to play in the A's comp so you want A's players to drop down to the C's comp to play other C's players who presumably also don't want to play A's and don't want to play against 7 or 8 A's players.
There is a huge skill and size difference A's to C's on the match I've seen.
The score lines do not suggest the runaway results you claim make it unfair.

 

[Adam Osborne]

FYI It doesn't look like the ACT will be sending an U15 or U17 team to the NSW STATE Championship this year.

 

[10to12]

Mate. Just look in your own backyard. EASTWOOD named 23 of which 12 from Beecroft and 9 from Dural. 2 of the boys I don't know where they came from.
They list 6 clubs making up the older ages in the area. In the 16s you have 2 clubs left. Guess you acquired some of those kids whose clubs have folded into your last two remaining teams. (Empire building????)
Gordon have a mix of 13 . 8 . 4 from three of the remaining four teams in this age group. The team that isn't represented plays in C grade. Two of the teams are in A grade
Eastwoods two teams have chosen to be in B grade even though ( as you tell us repeatedly) they were the second best team at the SC. (Trophy hunting)
Norths have chosen to put together a hobbled A and C team. IS has explained this pretty well. Boys want to play at their own level!!! Not come across several A graders that belt the hell out of you .
Numbers are decreasing and at 16s the boys have different priorities. Stop taking cheap shots at all and sundry and sort out your own back yard.
Selections for 15s last year were weird. Move on . Its 12 months later. Im sure SJRU know they stuffed up bigger than normal so let them solve their issues which they have plenty of.

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[Jaghond]

Slugga,
Re your post at #98 - seems the Norths Juniors President had similar concerns / queries regarding the purpose of the NSW Age Championships ( to give it it's correct title, I believe) as you have noted in your last paragraph.

Check Fat Cat's post at #426 in early March.

The poor old coaches (and selectors too, I guess) are going to be pilloried whichever way they tiurn, one suspects.

Hopefully, those kids involved will enjoy the experience, none the less.

 

[The Incredible Plan]

"Unfortunately we did not win the final (in the U14s). We're starting to come up against teams that have developed by poaching players, not the organic growth we've had, and at the very top level we struggle. Having said that we've got to both the finals of the competitions we enter, so we're pretty pleased about that. I not sure what we can do over the off season to help our boys grow a foot and put on four stone!"


Direct quote from an email overnight from a friend of mine in the uk who coaches his son's u14 team.


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