NSW JRU State Championships & Representative Teams 2014

[rams]

We have the lowest (by far) level of participation and the most (by far) levels of representative teams.

Why?[/quote]


To feed the egos of those living vicariously through their kids & for the trophy hunters. We do have an over complicated rep system & this is probably to the detriment of 70% of kids who just want to play rugby with their mates, not everyone wants to make a career out of rugby & most of the parents who think their little Johnny will be the next wallaby are watching a different game to the rest of us.
The rep system at league is transparent. I have coached kids who played rep rugby & rep league & the league parents were astounded that there is less than 6 degrees of separation between coaches, village clubs, players etc. On another note I don't know why we persist with running rep programs from 10's, I think 14's is the age we need to start reps, a lot of kids playing both codes & doing rep rugby are burnt out & over it by the time they get to 14's/15's.

 

[Kenny Powers]

.

We have a very small gene pool and we also have parents who are used to getting their own way all jockeying for positions in rep teams.

Soccer has even less rep type levels.

We have the lowest (by far) level of participation and the most (by far) levels of representative teams.

Why?

QH with regards to Soccer it does have less representative levels but due to team numbers has some very competitive and skilful aged based comps. Don't doubt the serious of some clubs, graded development squads from U8's, training twice a week and fees north of what you pay for JGC Rugby and then there's the 'Mongo' style football programs some kids are enrolled in and you're well into four figures there.

I can't answer why there are so many levels of rep rugby football but one observation I have is with a lot of these rep teams they are drawn from so few clubs even in the stronger districts with many village clubs. In other sports Rep teams I believe would show a wider more even distribution of rep selections amongst clubs.

This feeds the perception rightly or wrongly as (perception is everything, just ask Barry O'Farrell) you have to be at one of the bigger clubs for rep selection, which itself is another self inflicted wound on the health of the SJRU and the smaller clubs.

 

[rams]

QH with regards to Soccer it does have less representative levels but due

This feeds the perception rightly or wrongly as (perception is everything, just ask Barry O'Farrell) you have to be at one of the bigger clubs for rep selection, which itself is another self inflicted wound on the health of the SJRU and the smaller clubs.

Which in turn leads to the trophy hunters creating super teams which in turn leads to the demise of the smaller /weaker teams, thus leading to the continued decline of junior rugby in Sydney, which is such a problem it has it's own thread. All the while SJRU sits on their hands & does nothing

 

[Shane Smeltz]

QH with regards to Soccer it does have less representative levels but due to team numbers has some very competitive and skilful aged based comps. Don't doubt the serious of some clubs, graded development squads from U8's, training twice a week and fees north of what you pay for JGC Rugby and then there's the 'Mongo' style football programs some kids are enrolled in and you're well into four figures there.

I can't answer why there are so many levels of rep rugby football but one observation I have is with a lot of these rep teams they are drawn from so few clubs even in the stronger districts with many village clubs. In other sports Rep teams I believe would show a wider more even distribution of rep selections amongst clubs.

This feeds the perception rightly or wrongly as (perception is everything, just ask Barry O'Farrell) you have to be at one of the bigger clubs for rep selection, which itself is another self inflicted wound on the health of the SJRU and the smaller clubs.

KP is right about soccer.

It is quite well organised with it's Rep programs, run by Football New South Wales.
You do not play 'association club' you play PL club only.
There is Premier League 1 and 2. 12 teams in each. 24 teams total. Each PL club has U12-15s as youth. 16, 18, 20 and 1st grade as senior.
The numbers per club are around 64 in youth (4 teams x 16 players) and same in seniors. The season runs from around Jan-Sept. Cost is from $1800-$2500 (capped by FNSW).
Bottom team in PL1 is relegated to PL2 and top PL2 team up. Youth separate from seniors.
If you get into a good team at U12 you might well stay there for a few years if you are good - contracts are offered at the end of the normal season each year.

Below 12s there is SAP U9s-U11s where there are multiple teams per 30 clubs, cost around $1500, train 3x week and 1 game on the weekend.
That's another roughly 1800 participating at the U9-11s level but the numbers do drop off later as once they get to PL in the U12 there are 24 clubs and 16 spots per club.

The games for all are played all over Sydney from Wollongong to the Central Coast and out to Penrith.

Some of these soccer players do go on to make a career out of soccer either here (A-league) or overseas (quite common).

What I am pointing out is that there is a VERY different system here for soccer v rugby union but that there are plenty of parents prepared to pay big $ for their son to play 'PL' soccer and also drive all over Sydney for the games which are generally on Saturday mornings.

How can SJRU tap these parents minds and their wallets when they are clearly prepared to pay, and drive, for the round ball game?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Is the proliferation of Rep footy in rugby related to the Schools Vacuum?

Mungo is basically Club based, although they also suffer a rather large drop off in participant numbers post Under 14's. They run reps at 14's, 16's and 18's. Their rep programme is all over and done with before school Loig comps start, with the majority of their rep players attending schools which do not have compulsory Saturday Sport.

Rugby, on the other hand, loses many of its teenage participants into the Private School system. The higher the age group, the less likely that it is a boy will play both club and school rugby. Plenty manage to do so at Under 14, encouraged by Club footy being on a Sunday. Not all that many do so at Under 16, and very few at Under 18's.

State Champs at Under 11 and Under 12 levels "help" to establish the rugby credentials of boys for selection by reputation into the respective School Under 13 A Team. Once in the A stream in the Schools system, there isn't all that much movement up or down as that cohort progresses through School. They also provide plenty of opportunity for Oliver and Hamish to gather trinkets for the Pool Room, as there are 12 Rep opportunities across SJRU at this level.

If NSW JRU went to a U14, U16 and U18 model:
a. Very few from SRU would turn up to the Under 18's. Bugger all already turn up to the U17's. The players are either playing Colts (SRU or Subbies) or in School 1st XV or 2nd XV programmes and do not register with Village Clubs.
b. It would dovetail in with the JGC which is targeted at U15 and U17's.
c. Without the incentive of slots available at U16 National Champs, not many will turn up to the U16's, particularly those already established within the private school system. Those seeking Y10 or Y11 entry to elite schools have an opportunity to impress the "clipboards", so these would be keen attendees at U16's.
d. Schools would have to establish their initial Age Group streaming on merit not reputation.
e. Many kids would only do one NSW JRU Championship (U14). Not good for the trophy gatherers.
f. Administratively and logistically it would be significantly easier to orchestrate.

What can the Private School trophy hunters do to compensate on potentially missing out on Oliver and Hamish being selected for U14, U16 and U18 rep footy through the SJRU/NSW JRU model? AAGPS only have 3 representative teams, and these are at Under 18 level. The other associations have two School rep teams at U16 and U18 level. AAGPS seem to be the sole contributor to the quaintly named Presidents A and B Under 16 teams. Competition is tough for many of the School Rep Team slots, and also for the various School Age Group "A" teams. Not that many opportunities to gather trophies for the Pool Room.

 

[Quick Hands]

You've lost me with this one HJ, can't work out the point you are making.

 

[Quick Hands]

It is quite well organised with it's Rep programs, run by Football New South Wales.
You do not play 'association club' you play PL club only.

You're right in this and as you say it is totally separate from club - much like the JGC?

 

[Quick Hands]

The big (and very important) difference that I notice between soccer, league and rugby is that in soccer and league the programmes are run by senior clubs. Coaches, selectors and managers are appointed by the senior club are typically don't involved parents in those positions.

In this area Manly United and Manly Warringah league. The selection process is similar to the JGC and like JGC these programmes are separate from local clubs.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

You've lost me with this one HJ, can't work out the point you are making.

Like many of my rambling's there are a variety of points buried in the subtext.

Posters have queried the need for a rep programme for U11, U12, U13, U14, U15, U16, and U17 run by SJRU/NSW JRU. Why not go to U14, U16 and U18 for NSW JRU?

Tin Foil Hat 1.
If you got rid of the pre-high school reps (U11-U13), some kids who disappear into the Schools Vacuum at U13 would never make it to a SJRU/NSW JRU championships. No Pool Room Trinkets for the collectors.

Tin Foil Hat 2.
State Champs at U11 and U12 are useful to help sort out School A and B Stream players for the 13's.

Tin Foil Hat 3.
"Clipboards" also find the U11/U12 State Champs and PSSA Champs useful to determine which players may be invited to enrol at certain schools.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm not sure if we should be running championships for any of those reasons.

I don't think we should go to 14, 16 & 18, my point was that league only had 3 rep ages and 1 level (district). (I don't think and 18s comp would work for rugby anyway as those players should be in colts)

For rugby, I think the whole programme needs to be looked at.

15s and 17s already have a JGC - do they also need a NSWJRU champ?

15s and 17s should probably be run by district clubs as part of colts as well for non-JGS players.

10s-12s should be concentrating on having fun and learning skills and I don't think this rep process does much for that at all.

13s and 14s - about the right age to put these things on.

Although, these championships are the only thing that the NSWJRU do, so I can't see any change coming.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Not entirely true that this is all that NSW JRU do.

There is the Sydney vs Country Gala Day, and the NSW JRU vs <either ACT JRU or QLD JRU or both> for U15, U16 and U17.

They used to groom administrators for the step up to the august ranks of the AJRU.

It is a valid question as to whether we still need them as an entity.

NSW CJRU and SJRU should be able to work together to achieve the same outcomes that NSW JRU does, without the need for another layer of bureaucracy involved. Any disputes between C JRU and SJRU that can't be resolved by both parties acting in the best interests of Rugby could be referred to NSW RU for resolution.

 

[I like to watch]

I think it's worthwhile having reps in 10-12 age groups.
It's a great long weekend for the kids.
But I don't see the need to have an overall winner.
It should be more about the experience than determining an overall "champion" team.
Invariably,when it's not sheep stations,it's a better overall experience for the kids,and everyone gets plenty of game time,instead of the 3 or 4 stars dominating the entire weekend.

 

[Quick Hands]

It is a valid question as to whether we still need them as an entity.

HJ, the whole organisation needs a complete overhaul, not just this little part of it.

 

[Shane Smeltz]

The big (and very important) difference that I notice between soccer, league and rugby is that in soccer and league the programmes are run by senior clubs. Coaches, selectors and managers are appointed by the senior club are typically don't involved parents in those positions.

In this area Manly United and Manly Warringah league. The selection process is similar to the JGC and like JGC these programmes are separate from local clubs.

Yes QH the PL soccer clubs such as Manly United are run separately from local associations. They are 'linked' with the local association but are run and financed completely separately. Their grounds are usually played on only by the PL teams, the local association teams play on local council grounds.

As you said there are Technical Directors for the coaching staff, coaches that are paid (not full time pay, just pocket money) etc. No parental involvement at that level.
It is quite a professional setup but as I said the parents pay for it.

I'm not 100% sure how the league works but you HAVE to play club to get into the Harold Matts/HG Ball summer comps is my understanding? And yes, the senior club runs it separately so you are playing for Manly Sea Eagles, Parramatta Eels, Wests Tigers, etc. Cost is free.

With soccer you would have to come from a soccer background to even trial for the youngest PL age group (U12s) as the technical skills required at that age are quite complex. Watch Barca play and you'll get my drift - in 2014 it is possession football (soccer).

Whereas JGC anyone could trial and get in - club union, school union, league players - ANYONE could trial.
Maybe it's not right that 'anyone' can trial but with the unique issue of the private schools and their Saturday games (not applicable to league or soccer) then the issue is that the private school non-club players shouldn't be excluded from the JGC?

However this thread is about the club champs and all the 'rep levels'. And what to do about them.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Whereas JGC anyone could trial and get in - club union, school union, league players - ANYONE could trial.
Maybe it's not right that 'anyone' can trial but with the unique issue of the private schools and their Saturday games (not applicable to league or soccer) then the issue is that the private school non-club players shouldn't be excluded from the JGC?

This encapsulates the lack of a clear purpose.
No one should be excluded from playing the game. We should encourage everyone to come and play the game.
However, the ARU should not spend its precious and extremely limited resources on a "come and try it basis".
Village club people and the NSWRU are entitled to question how it is that they are asked to fund the ARU with the $200 levy and also have to front with $600+ to participate in JGC despite their prior connection with the game. What additional consideration do they get for being loyal to this game?
Yet the league soccer and AFL kids who decide to give JGC a whirl pay the same amount and are not expected to put back into the game: talk about alienating your constituency - but at the same time they are doing nothing to draw (drag?) these kids into the game.
This is why, IMHO, JGC should be selected from club/rep rugby through the course of the season: it wold force people with aspirations to commit to the grass roots and do their bit to provide a game for kids who might not presently have the aspiration but who, based on the stats, are the most likely to be the elite adult rugby players.
here endeth the sermon.

 

[Quick Hands]

IS, the whole thing needs a major overhaul, from NFJ down to U6s. Admin, competitions we run, rep teams (how many and what ages), juniors etc. It's just a confused, mismanaged mess from top to bottom.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Which in turn leads to the trophy hunters creating super teams which in turn leads to the demise of the smaller /weaker teams, thus leading to the continued decline of junior rugby in Sydney, which is such a problem it has it's own thread. All the while SJRU sits on their hands & does nothing

If you look at statistics around Gordon Juniors Rep teams U11 to U13 for this year it illustrates a very concerning state of affairs.

Before I start this post is not about selections, bias, unfairness etc I have no involvement in this nor should it be taken to reflect unfavourably on selectors, coaches etc involved. It is about individual clubs growing stronger a the the expense of other clubs, rather than rugby as a whole growing and developing and nurturing as many boys and girls as possible.

Gordon would be one of strongest districts in the state, with 8 village clubs, with strong team numbers until you hit U14's. So I looked at rep selections for 2014 for the u11's to u13's. (There are two U11 teams)

All up 91 boys have been selected and a staggering 43% came from one club and 26% from another. So almost 70% from two clubs, with the remaining 6 clubs fill the other 30% of selections.

Also when you are looking for a rugby camp for your kid during the holidays these two clubs run or outsource camps but they are 'exclusive' to their players only. The smaller clubs lack the critical mass and facilities to run holiday camps, but having exclusive camps for individual clubs does nothing to foster rugby development.

If anyone thinks this is good for rugby, hit the reply button and do your best.

So you look at joining a club in the Gordon district, you are faced with the statistics of 2 clubs domination and no local holiday camp structure if you join a smaller club. The evidence of this is the local school, every kid at the school plays for the local soccer club, without exception. Rugby is split some play for the local club others travel and play for one of the big clubs.

What needs to happen is rather than clubs be given areas they are allocated primary schools, kids play with their mates and rather than run exclusive holiday camps lets see the bigger picture and open it at least to the other clubs in your district. Also those that are suggesting that rep rugby start around u14's do have a point when you look at how it drives behaviour.

 

[Boof]

Just ou

This encapsulates the lack of a clear purpose.
No one should be excluded from playing the game. We should encourage everyone to come and play the game.
However, the ARU should not spend its precious and extremely limited resources on a "come and try it basis".
Village club people and the NSWRU are entitled to question how it is that they are asked to fund the ARU with the $200 levy and also have to front with $600+ to participate in JGC despite their prior connection with the game. What additional consideration do they get for being loyal to this game?
Yet the league soccer and AFL kids who decide to give JGC a whirl pay the same amount and are not expected to put back into the game: talk about alienating your constituency - but at the same time they are doing nothing to draw (drag?) these kids into the game.
This is why, IMHO, JGC should be selected from club/rep rugby through the course of the season: it wold force people with aspirations to commit to the grass roots and do their bit to provide a game for kids who might not presently have the aspiration but who, based on the stats, are the most likely to be the elite adult rugby players.
here endeth the sermon.

Just out of interest how many kids involved in JGC were from a background other than club or school rugby , we had one dual coder to my knowledge.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Just ou



Just out of interest how many kids involved in JGC were from a background other than club or school rugby , we had one dual coder to my knowledge.

Several in the programs I know of and many more trialling way back in November.
What is your definition of a dual coder? I ask because someone who plays league and then flits in for JGS is not, in my view, a dual coder.
I have no issue with kids who play loig and union provided they do the latter in village club rugby.
That was my real point: the ARU should support village clubs by only selecting kids into JGC who are playing village club rugby - wherever they go to school.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Anyone have any inside information on the Country 15's & 17's Zone Teams?

Given the number of regional NSW JGC Centres, the country zone teams in these age groups should be very well prepared for the State Champs, if they have retained their talent.