NSW AAGPS Rugby 2012

[I like to watch]

Youve just tapped into a thought I've had for the past coupla years. After watching reansonable Grammar teams getting smashed by very strong "hand picked' teams loaded with GPS rep players. Loosing by 60+ is not a win, no one beniffits...now that GPS selections are made prior to the comp, lets say the GPS selected players sit out the rounds against High and Grammar, It would give lesser players a chance to play up a grade or two, and you would expect the big teams to still win, and probably promote a better game..

I don't think so.
High can't compete against most GPS II's, they are simply to small.
Why the desperation to continue the charade?
It's a 6 team comp, which is simply not enough teams.
A season of Rugby that spans little more than a month is a farce.
Time the ARU shook the whole schoolboy system up, and set up 3 or 4 real comps with divisions so that many more kids get a proper Rugby season.
Only pick rep teams out of these comps (with certain allowances for kids where schools do not field Rugby teams)

 

[Hugh Jarse]

...snip...
It's a 6 team comp, which is simply not enough teams.
....snip..
Time the ARU shook the whole schoolboy system up, and set up 3 or 4 real comps with divisions so that many more kids get a proper Rugby season.
Only pick rep teams out of these comps (with certain allowances for kids where schools do not field Rugby teams)

1. CAS is also a 6 team comp with perennial underachievers.
2. NSWRU chose not to take on the Schools (See NSWRU Response to the Garling Report), so why would ARU. Schools, particularly Sydney GPS and CAS do an awful lot of youth development work which is effectively free for the ARU.
3. How many good kids would we miss out on if the Selectors were not able to pick from the non-traditional powerhouses? There are a wide variety of reasons that some parents do not send Nigel and Oscar to "Rugby" schools.
Despite having a very successful U16A team, according to analysis done elsewhere, out of 46 slots available, Joeys only managed to get two kids into the U16 "pathway" via NSW Schools/SJRU teams. Scots, Cranbrook, Barker, St Augustines similarly could only manage 2 players each into the U16 National Champs. Oakhill and Newington were right up there with St Andrews and Chevalier who all got 1 player selected.

 

[Lomu]

1. GPS is a very old tradition...outsiders just dont get it. It is not going to change, I am sorry for your loss.

 

[I like to watch]

1. CAS is also a 6 team comp with perennial underachievers.
2. NSWRU chose not to take on the Schools (See NSWRU Response to the Garling Report), so why would ARU. Schools, particularly Sydney GPS and CAS do an awful lot of youth development work which is effectively free for the ARU.
3. How many good kids would we miss out on if the Selectors were not able to pick from the non-traditional powerhouses? There are a wide variety of reasons that some parents do not send Nigel and Oscar to "Rugby" schools.
Despite having a very successful U16A team, according to analysis done elsewhere, out of 46 slots available, Joeys only managed to get two kids into the U16 "pathway" via NSW Schools/SJRU teams. Scots, Cranbrook, Barker, St Augustines similarly could only manage 2 players each into the U16 National Champs. Oakhill and Newington were right up there with St Andrews and Chevalier who all got 1 player selected.

1 Exactly, the 2 premier Schoolboy comps are a joke
2 So everything the NSWRU choose to do, or choose not to do is correct? What did Garling reccomend re Schools?
3, That sort of proves my point, at 16 the talent pool is reasonably diversified. Yet by the Opens it is dominated by 4 of the 6 team GPS comp.Do you really believe the sport is in a healthy position when 4 Schools provide almost 1/2 of the NSW squad?

 

[no9]

Kings numbers rose to 8 with Randell chosen in the Combined States team. Have since risen to 10 with Moylan and Davies drafted into the CS and NSW 2's respectively as replacements.

6 of their 7 backs are now in NSW 2's along with 2 of their forwards with another 2 of their forwards in CS.

Not to mention J. Tourish for the Northern Territory (How do you qualify for NT schools when you are registered and playing in NSW? Invite? Manu?). Who were the poor Kings buggers who didn't get a rep jersey this year, who did they upset?

With this kind of domination of all things rugby they may as well hand the GPS title to Kings now. Old CTPE mustn't be able to sit down with the excitement.

 

[HarveyColon]

what is up with tourish.....sounds a bit suspicious if you ask me

and whatever happened to that tall joeys winger Hookey......I thought he was in yr 11 last year and I heard of him still playing basketball for joeys at the start of this year.....good high jumper too

Instead of trying to shake upthe GPS sport system, why don't:
1. Grammar and high accept they have to import
2. With a new development next to grammar ocurring they could grab some room space for perhaps some boarders which they used to have well into the 80's. Some hard country boys could recreate themselves here and contribute to the new rugby programm that started this year.
3. Grammar could combine in a team with high to iron out weaknesses in key positions. It is only a 10 minute bus ride between the schools who could train at weigall on a tuesday and then centennial park on a thursday
4. an outlandish proposition.....although it could work; have one u17 barbarian team to play each week incorporating the best 15 u17's from all gps schools....of course many of these people would be playing for their own 1's but it could be like a best of the rest sort of deal which includes anyone who missed out on 1's at their own school and wanted to have a crack. it could include u18's as well. train in the 1 spot each week wherever that may be.

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... ... ... ... Instead of trying to shake upthe GPS sport system, why don't:
1. Grammar and high accept they have to import. ... ... ... ... ... ...

Harvey,

High from my understanding has tried to attract more sport orientated lads, however it is a school that is very academic and in years 11 and 12 they only offer extension math and English. Some lads only want to do the bare minimum which then makes High very unattractive.

 

[Man on the hill]

...

2. NSWRU chose not to take on the Schools (See NSWRU Response to the Garling Report), so why would ARU. Schools, particularly Sydney GPS and CAS do an awful lot of youth development work which is effectively free for the ARU.

It's not up to NSWRU - its an ARU issue. NSW Schools is affiliated to Australian Schools and through that to the ARU. SJRU (Sydney Comp) is affiliated to NSW Juniors, then NSWRU, and then ARU.

So, on the issue of Schools in Sydney - it's not going to change till the puppet masters of St Leonards say its time. They can cut off the funds to Australian Schools, but I don't think that will cause too much flutter for either GPS or CAS (it may for others).

I have it on the very best of authority that a minor turf war is already brewing between NSWRU & GPS & CAS and whereas normally NSWRU can threaten "no insurance coverage", my snouts tell me that GPS & CAS maintain their own insurance coverage so the normal path is denied.

 

[sulidor]

Harvey,

High from my understanding has tried to attract more sport orientated lads, however it is a school that is very academic and in years 11 and 12 they only offer extension math and English. Some lads only want to do the bare minimum which then makes High very unattractive.

....High problem could be "solved" by nominating one of the sports highs, or at least the male component thereof, as, e.g. Sydney Boys High, Hills campus. Is even consistent with the fact that High is a 'selective' school....just broadening the parameters by recognising that rugby is now a legitimate career path.......would LOVE to see the reaction of the currently importing GPS schools....lololol...

 

[Man on the hill]

..High problem could be "solved" by nominating one of the sports highs, or at least the male component thereof, as, e.g. Sydney Boys High, Hills campus. Is even consistent with the fact that High is a 'selective' school..just broadening the parameters by recognising that rugby is now a legitimate career path...would LOVE to see the reaction of the currently importing GPS schools..lololol.

Have heard that suggestion before & liked it before, HOWEVER, I doubt that GPS would follow that suggestion, why would they, what's in it for them?
What appears to matter to GPS is being able to dominate each other on the rugby field - a bi-product of that, is a disproportionate number of players (based on player populations) going through to higher rep honours from their competition.

It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy of sorts, more (better) players are attracted because more players get selected because more of the better players have been "enticed" to play there in the first instance.
Maybe if Aust Schools grew a set and insisted that their affiliates "toed the line" (whatever that might be) or else lose their affiliate status and through that the opportunity to be selected in various Schoolboy representative teams, thereby removing the original attraction to be recruited as part of the individual players' "pathway to gold", then some version of normal might be re-established.

A grass roots elite player revolt, no pathway to schoolboy rugby selection, maybe the players and their parents would think twice before turning their back on the competitions that have nurtured them at square one.

Now to find a court in the land that would support Aust Schools in such an interfering, Quixotic tilt!

 

[Newbie]

..High problem could be "solved" by nominating one of the sports highs, or at least the male component thereof, as, e.g. Sydney Boys High, Hills campus. Is even consistent with the fact that High is a 'selective' school..just broadening the parameters by recognising that rugby is now a legitimate career path...would LOVE to see the reaction of the currently importing GPS schools..lololol.

Thank you Dr Jaggar I can see your your time in the NSW Education system has not been wasted. Brilliant observation. I look forward to seeing you resurrect the past rugby fortunes of your school in the near future!

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... Now to find a court in the land that would support Aust Schools in such an interfering, Quixotic tilt!

You even had me running for a dictionary for that word my friend! And after reading the definition i must admit i too suffer from spells of 'QUIXOTISM'. But is there a cure?

The courts in general loathe to go near anything that concerns the governance of children in sport, let alone matters that pertain to just sport! Nevertheless I would dare say that there would be a few greedy lawyers willing to take such a matter on.

 

[Man on the hill]

You even had me running for a dictionary for that word my friend!

The courts in general loathe to go near anything that concerns the governance of children in sport, let alone matters that pertain to just sport! Nevertheless I would dare say that there would be a few greedy lawyers willing to take such a matter on.

And indeed, the only winners would be the lawyers - who in all likelihood are GPS educated so will take it on for free to protect their version of the status quo

 

[Hugh Jarse]

While all very good points in the debate about reform of Sydney Schools and Sydney Junior Rugby, perhaps we should start another thread similar to the "Selectors Bias/NTS/Gold Squad thread" to stay on topic (the GPS competition in Sydney for 2012) in this thread, or perhaps move the debate to "The Garling Report Thread".

Not trying to stiffle debate, but suggest that it would be useful if all the good ideas were kept in one area rather than dispersed across several threads.

MOTH - love your ideas but like you am firmly of the belief that it will never happen. Too many vested interests at stake. Too much money, influence and branding at stake. I can't really seen any reason for ARU to attempt to disturb the apple cart - heaps of free high level development through elite GPS and CAS programmes, the perception of GPS old boys becoming/remaining commercial and industrial barons with links to future sponsorship, funding and influence etc.

....snip...

I have it on the very best of authority that a minor turf war is already brewing between NSWRU & GPS & CAS and whereas normally NSWRU can threaten "no insurance coverage", my snouts tell me that GPS & CAS maintain their own insurance coverage so the normal path is denied.

Intrigued about this point given the "party line" in the Garling Report response from NSWRU. You probs can't (or don't want to) tell more re this right now, and I understand why but it will be "interesting" to see how this pans out if indeed it has legs.

What I can't understand is why there would be behind the scenes clandestine manoeuvering in NSW rugby. This is so out of character and would be breaking new turf for such a transparent group.

 

[I like to watch]

1. GPS is a very old tradition.outsiders just dont get it. It is not going to change, I am sorry for your loss.

Old traditions are always better than young or is it new traditions?
I think outsiders do get it, the GPS was the default Rugby nursery in the good old days. The days before development squads NTS etc etc.
They were the good old days, the world has moved on. The rest of the Rugby world has very strong Junior games where top Schools from different regions play each other regularly.We don't even have a structure in place where top Schools in nearby suburbs play each other!
But you think that it is good for the game that 50% of state representatives comes from Schools that compete in an uneven 5 week competition, where it is agreed that Rugby training should be limited to Rugby season only.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

....... snip ..
The rest of the Rugby world has very strong Junior games where top Schools from different regions play each other regularly.......

My mate in Brisvegas would not agree with this statement. He and his boys have experience in both SJRU and BJRU competitions. Despite all the issues with SJRU and schools and politics and......, in his opinion, things are immensely better in Olde Sydney Towne.

If you are referring to the Land of Darkness, there are no junior clubs at schoolboy level. They either play for their school or not play.

Can't comment on the Safferland or the Northern Hemi approach.

 

[Lindommer]

3. Grammar could combine in a team with High to iron out weaknesses in key positions. It is only a 10 minute bus ride between the schools who could train at Weigall on a Tuesday and then Centennial Park on a Thursday.

Grammar and High (and TAS) are "combining" their teams this year to privide a fixture for their GPS opponents. This is the first year of the tri-team arrangement, could any current GPS parent comment how well it's working.

There's been quite a bit of animosity between High and Grammar boys over the last few years, including the odd ugly fight at rugby matches. They're two of Sydney's best three or four academic boys' schools, one costs parents a shitload of money and the other next to nothing. But on another level a lot of parents whose children don't get into selective schools bite the bullet and go private. It's rumoured something like 70% of boys from immigrant backgounds at eastern suburbs independent schools missed out on selective school selection. If I can dig up that article I'll post it.

Teams including boys from both Grammar and High? Well, there'll be peace in the Middle East one day.

 

[Man on the hill]

...i must admit i too suffer from spells of 'QUIXOTISM'. But is there a cure?

Yes - you have to take your hand off your lance

 

[I like to watch]

My mate in Brisvegas would not agree with this statement. He and his boys have experience in both SJRU and BJRU competitions. Despite all the issues with SJRU and schools and politics and.., in his opinion, things are immensely better in Olde Sydney Towne.

If you are referring to the Land of Darkness, there are no junior clubs at schoolboy level. They either play for their school or not play.

Can't comment on the Safferland or the Northern Hemi approach.

The land of darkness where Schoolboy football game telecasts are promoted 3 weeks ahead of the game?
Ever been to a U 17's game in Sydney?Teams are a mix of kids that are Schoolboy reps & kids who couldn't make the school thirds.
It is more a social event for the participants than a contest.
If you don't believe me go down to a game and ask those there.
There is not 1 competition of any length of reasonable standard for kid's over 16 and below colts, not in schools,not in village.
That is a fact.

 

[Runner]

All this chatter about GPS and the good old days. We would not have this forum, mobile phones etc if we had that attitude across change and its introduction. In all the various associations, as various contributors have stated in the forums, there are 2 to 3 strong teams yet apart from occassion trials do they meet for anything serious.
Start to look beyond biases and think about the long term future of the game as it faces challenges from soccer and AFL. My child has never seen a rugby rep at their school yet they have had two visits in the last 18 months from AFL.