NSW AAGPS 2017

[Rich_E]

I have said before that trial form shouldn't be taken too seriously, and that's on the back of people boasting about results.
In the past, these trial matches have been an opportunity for coaches to experiment with different combinations. A full compliment of players may not have taken the field and swapping and changing players throughout a game doesn't help.

I agree that you shouldn't put too much emphasis on trial results for many reasons, including those you have listed.

But Scots put 40 points on Waverley in a 'trial' game that took place in the break between terms 2 and 3 this year. That was after at least the first full round of GPS and CAS comp games had been completed.

I understand Waverley were missing a few key players, including their star winger who was injured in the Nationals just prior to that game. Maybe they were missing a few more.

But 40 points is still a fairly compelling margin.

I'm not trying to bag Waverley. I was at that game and actually thought they were the better side in the first half. And there were only a few points difference at oranges.

But Scots were much fitter and seemed to be able to focus better on what was quite a simple and broadly well understood game plan. And it was this difference between the two sides that transcended into what was a comprehensive difference in the scoreline at full time.

If that game provides any keys to what Waverley (and possibly Knox) will need to do next year to consistently knock off the GPS teams in the trials, there are 2 things IMO.

1. They will need to be as fit, if not fitter. Sounds captain obvious but is often overlooked.
2. They will need to be extremely disciplined. Both in sticking to the game plan and in avoiding cheap penalties.

Scots won the GPS in 2016 with a cohort that lacked the superstars of say Joeys in the backs and the reason they won was because they were fitter than any side, by being less exhausted towards the end of matches they were able to make key decisions with greater clarity (often game changing decisions) and they had a simple game plan that was flawlessly executed.

 

[sidelineview]

But Scots put 40 points on Waverley in a 'trial' game that took place in the break between terms 2 and 3 this year. That was after at least the first fulround of GPS and CAS comp games had been completed.

I understand Waverley were missing a few key players, including their star winger who was injured in the Nationals just prior to that game. Maybe they were missing a few more.

You're right: several key Waverley players were missing from that one game, so dont read too much into it. I still don't put too much importance on pre-season or holiday trial matches.

It was a different story once the CAS comp got under way again and Waverley played a very entertaining confident brand of running rugby.
Who knows how they would have fared as a regular in the GPS comp.

Waverley actually had good depth last season, but I think an advantage GPS schools may have over CAS schools in general is depth.

Fitness, discipline, sticking to the game plan etc etc are all obvious strengths for any team but analysing one trial match doesn't necessarily sum up a team.
You really need to judge a team over an extended period of time in the comp proper.

 

[Quick Hands]

Everyone has players out injured every week. It's makes no sense to explain away losses (particuarly large ones) because of injuries and/or unavailabilities.

 

[sidelineview]

Everyone has players out injured every week. It's makes no sense to explain away losses (particuarly large ones) because of injuries and/or unavailabilities.

It does with trial matches which by definition are not competition matches. They are preparation for the comp proper but if anyone wants to grab hold of bragging rights from the results of trial matches then go ahead.

 

[Quick Hands]

It does with trial matches which by definition are not competition matches. They are preparation for the comp proper but if anyone wants to grab hold of bragging rights from the results of trial matches then go ahead.

Well, the trial matches in 2017 will still be trial matches. All teams will still have players injured or unavailable.

The main people who place a lot of store in trial matches are usually those from CAS schools after a close loss or occasional win against a GPS school, which is then used to trumpet how close the standard is.

Last year for example, Knox went into the trial against Joeys with their full strength team, talked things up and were convincingly beaten.

 

[sidelineview]

Well, the trial matches in 2017 will still be trial matches. All teams will still have players injured or unavailable.

The main people who place a lot of store in trial matches are usually those from CAS schools after a close loss or occasional win against a GPS school, which is then used to trumpet how close the standard is.

Last year for example, Knox went into the trial against Joeys with their full strength team, talked things up and were convincingly beaten.

Yeah whatever mate ... I've always thought it was a joke that anyone (from GPS or CAS) would view trial match results too seriously in the past.
Rep results however are different.

But the ''trial'' matches next year will no doubt be viewed differently from the traditional pre-season and holiday trial matches of previous years. Bragging rights will be up for grabs but little else I guess.

 

[Rachet_84]

Yeah whatever mate . I've always thought it was a joke that anyone (from GPS or CAS) would view trial match results too seriously in the past.
Rep results however are different.

But the ''trial'' matches next year will no doubt be viewed differently from the traditional pre-season and holiday trial matches of previous years. Bragging rights will be up for grabs but little else I guess.

A coach for any GPS school, along with any of the top quality players, the ultimate glory is winning the GPS comp, albeit 5 round comp in 2017.

Now if you were a coach, would you risk playing your top players, the game breakers, in the 6 meaningless trials and risk injury and not having them for the 5 round competition ?

As a top quality player I could guarantee they will be playing in the trials due to opportunities to impress rep selectors. But again as a coach you have tp sit, wait, watch and hope that your top players get through the meaningless trials, get through the rep games and then come out the other side with no injury and ready to perform in the measly 4 rounds left of the GPS championship. Who who who come up with this draw???

 

[Quick Hands]

Who who who come up with this draw???

It's probably the result of horsetrading and back-room dealing, with various people pushing for their own little something. Put it all together and it's a nonsense.

 

[White line fever]

I agree that you shouldn't put too much emphasis on trial results for many reasons, including those you have listed.

But Scots put 40 points on Waverley in a 'trial' game that took place in the break between terms 2 and 3 this year. That was after at least the first full round of GPS and CAS comp games had been completed.

I understand Waverley were missing a few key players, including their star winger who was injured in the Nationals just prior to that game. Maybe they were missing a few more.

But 40 points is still a fairly compelling margin.

I'm not trying to bag Waverley. I was at that game and actually thought they were the better side in the first half. And there were only a few points difference at oranges.

But Scots were much fitter and seemed to be able to focus better on what was quite a simple and broadly well understood game plan. And it was this difference between the two sides that transcended into what was a comprehensive difference in the scoreline at full time.

If that game provides any keys to what Waverley (and possibly Knox) will need to do next year to consistently knock off the GPS teams in the trials, there are 2 things IMO.

1. They will need to be as fit, if not fitter. Sounds captain obvious but is often overlooked.
2. They will need to be extremely disciplined. Both in sticking to the game plan and in avoiding cheap penalties.

Scots won the GPS in 2016 with a cohort that lacked the superstars of say Joeys in the backs and the reason they won was because they were fitter than any side, by being less exhausted towards the end of matches they were able to make key decisions with greater clarity (often game changing decisions) and they had a simple game plan that was flawlessly executed.

Rich_E, I completely agree with your analysis of the Scots/Waverley game.
The difference was fitness, not talent. Sideline is also correct,the Waverley side had a number of seriously talented players which certainly emerged not long after this game, in the end both Knox and Waverley would have been very competitive against the GPS schools.
I believe that the GPS comp and CAS comps have way too few teams these days.
GPS has 5, maybe 6, teams who can win and the CAS typically 2-3, so compared to any other sporting comp I can think of, this comp size is ridiculous.

I know SDW and sideline have the view about it having no effect on the national team but surely by bringing more schools, who want to be involved, into a stronger comp then the skill level of these schools should improve, and thus the flow on effect for rugby.

My view has always been to have a super comp, including teams like Auggies,Oakhill, Pius etc, whilst still having your own association comp.

My view is strengthen these traditionally important breeding grounds so we can lift the games profile, compete against soccer etc.
Yes we also need to desperately address the public school rugby situation as well.

Once again , if we DON'T evolve, then the slide WILL continue.

 

[SonnyDillWilliams]

without doubt the GPS competition has been the Sydney comp with the most prestige

... and that is "moth to a flame"

however you only have to look at the facilities of schools like Knox to see that the CAS schools have grown massively and while Knox's 2016 results against Joeys might suggest the gap remains, there has definitely been some catch-up

I am guessing a possible inclusion of the likes of Knox and Waverley in 2018 super comp, might be as much about ensuring the 13Fs gets a match up, as how the 1sts might fare

yes the Joeys bus coordinator will be a happy man

I do agree with Sideline, that certain CAS schools haven't been big recruiters (refer to scholarship thread for all the stars landing in GPS land, many from CAS schools), plus the prestige factor has seen CAS stars lost, even without inducements

it is worth reading the current Peter Fitzsimmons article (I would link if I knew how) on the fortunes of rugby league and rugby union in Europe ... he notes

" Rugby League has died in Europe. All good players now go to union; in England, in France. So its a big game. Its growing in America"

Its only in Australia where the administrators are completely incompetent ... asleep at the wheel ... unlike the AFL which is throwing resources and money at grassroots development, the ARU is run by private school oldboys ... the likes of Pulver, Farr-Jones, etc

and so I keep coming back to my mixed feelings for where the GPS/CAS rugby is heading ... namely a super narrow and elite comp ... meantime all the CHS stars get pilfered by Mungo Central

oh well rugby league might be dying in Europe, but in Sydney, the private schools seem to be unwittingly keeping rugby league alive and well

 

[White line fever]

SDW,

This idea of a new "super narrow and elite comp" I think needs clarification.
We ALREADY have a few very very very small elite comps, with schools slowly diminishing in their competitiveness a, eg apparently Shore now struggles, so now we have only 5 really competitive GPS schools.

If the status quo remains what do you think will eventually happen, bit by bit.
It's time for a new era, which will get more profile,and will hopefully light a public school revival, as the school boy game gets more profile.
This is a business strategy, which the AFl and soccer have killed us at!

 

[Tahs247]

SDW, to say that CAS schools don't recruit is rubbish. I know for a fact that Barker and Knox both recruit along with Trinity for certain sports. Not sure about Waverley and the others but i'm sure their is always some sneaky stuff going on.

 

[sidelineview]

To focus on the private school competitions as some kind of answer to the overall problems concerning Australian rugby is .... I've run out of words.
The hard sell still doesn't add up. It had to be part of an overall strategy.
Maybe someone in a position of authority will release a statement one day, which should be interesting.

Spot on about the rugby administrators SDW and CHS and public schools re rugby and league. . The highest priority i would have thought.The league Clubs wouldn't be complaining

Fitzsimmons' article was interesting. Rugby is big on the world stage, and in theory at least (supply and demand limitations) many opportunities exist for promising players, but the rugby administrators are letting everyone else take their lunch off them.

 

[sidelineview]

SDW, to say that CAS schools don't recruit is rubbish. I know for a fact that Barker and Knox both recruit along with Trinity for certain sports. Not sure about Waverley and the others but i'm sure their is always some sneaky stuff going on.

You realise an assumption is the mother of all stuff ups dont you.
Scholarships need to be funded.
Waverley don't offer scholarships, not even in a ''sneaky'' way.
Their talent is homegrown and with the emergence of AFL and soccer as popular school sports their rugby fortunes are cyclical.

 

[White line fever]

To focus on the private school competitions as some kind of answer to the overall problems concerning Australian rugby is .. I've run out of words.
The hard sell still doesn't add up. It had to be part of an overall strategy.
Maybe someone in a position of authority will release a statement one day, which should be interesting.


Spot on about the rugby administrators SDW and CHS and public schools re rugby and league. . The highest priority i would have thought.The league Clubs wouldn't be complaining

Fitzsimmons' article was interesting. Rugby is big on the world stage, and in theory at least (supply and demand limitations) many opportunities exist for promising players, but the rugby administrators are letting everyone else take their lunch off them.

Sideline, I agree on all points but I am not saying the private school change alone will influence the Australian team, never said that.
But these comps have played a significant role in our national team make-up historically.

My point again is the need to evolve, and not for the sake of it, but if it all stays the same...........
Sometimes I think people don't read earlier posts, and at end of the day, we all agree or disagree which is fine, but putting our heads in the sand and wanting an existing comfort zone will ensure destruction, OMG!

 

[Rich_E]

Rich_E, I completely agree with your analysis of the Scots/Waverley game.
The difference was fitness, not talent.

Yeah. Waverley had little left in the tank from around mid way in the second half and that's when Scots ran away with it.

I recall a Waverley back burnt his opposite number to set up the first try of the game. Also impressive were one of their props (I think 3) as well as their 6 and 8, if my memory serves me correctly. I don't know their names, but for Waverley's sake I hope they are back next year.

But i also think Waverley's discipline let them down quite a bit, with a second half penalty count stacked against them making it easier than it should have been for Scots to gain metres and score points.

I'm not surprised to hear Waverley improved quite a bit after that game and I don't think any returning Scots player will have taken too much from the 2016 holiday trial win. Nor would they be taking Waverley lightly if they were be playing them next year. But they are not. The only CAS team Scots will be trialling against is Knox.

But I've already made a note in my diary for the Waverley v Joeys game. Should be a cracker. I will be watching that one for sure.

 

[Tahs247]

You realise an assumption is the mother of all stuff ups dont you.
Scholarships need to be funded.
Waverley don't offer scholarships, not even in a ''sneaky'' way.
Their talent is homegrown and with the emergence of AFL and soccer as popular school sports their rugby fortunes are cyclical.

Not sure about Waverley, but i know for a fact that Barker and Trinity definitely do.

 

[White line fever]

Yeah. Waverley had little left in the tank from around mid way in the second half and that's when Scots ran away with it.

I recall a Waverley back burnt his opposite number to set up the first try of the game. Also impressive were one of their props (I think 3) as well as their 6 and 8, if my memory serves me correctly. I don't know their names, but for Waverley's sake I hope they are back next year.

But i also think Waverley's discipline let them down quite a bit, with a second half penalty count stacked against them making it easier than it should have been for Scots to gain metres and score points.

I'm not surprised to hear Waverley improved quite a bit after that game and I don't think any returning Scots player will have taken too much from the 2016 holiday trial win. Nor would they be taking Waverley lightly if they were be playing them next year. But they are not. The only CAS team Scots will be trialling against is Knox.

But I've already made a note in my diary for the Waverley v Joeys game. Should be a cracker. I will be watching that one for sure.

Rich_E, spit on about that game.

You know what's really funny is that many of us are at home on a Sat. night not at the night club, so I guess the age profile of us all is just above 25!

I was disappointed that out of all the GPS schools,we are not playing scots.
Many of the boys all know each other very well,are mates, and have played together in the junior Easts teams.

No one appears to know what is happening with the younger age groups but I do really hope that these older match ups extend beyond the 1sts and 2nds, as there are some younger age groups in the CAS who will most definitely match it with the GPS, in fact, they will beat them all.

 

[White line fever]

Rich, I meant spot on, not spit on!

 

[White line fever]

Rich, there are many returning players from last year, it was a young team.
The players you highlighted will return, I think out trick us to be fitter earlier in the season.
What happened last year was their real talent emerged as their match fitness improved!
There were 2 who missed the Aussie school boys team, the halfback and winger, how - who knows, but as you know the politics is huge.