Not another "Four More Years Boys"

[RugbyReg]

Was this the best the 'minnow's have performed at a RWC? Some very enterprising and promising performances by the likes of Georgia, Russia, USA, Canada and Tonga. Japan and Fiji disappointed, but that's par for the course with Japan it seems and Fiji have had some non-rugby turmoil impacting their development of late.

Anyway, the purpose of the post is to say I don't want it to be another four years before we see these teams again. I'd suggest that's what it will be however.

I can understand the ARU not wishing to bring these teams here for a test, as it would be a financial flop. But it would be fantastic to play a test v Georgia or Russia for example during an end of season Europe test.

Back in the day we used to tour North America before we'd play a 2 test series in France. That'd be worth a review again would it not?

Or how about committing to one test a year, on the way over to Europe perhaps, in one of the Pacific Islands?

I guess with the expanded Super Rugby Season, then the later running 4-Series, with the addition of Argentina, its all getting a bit tight.

Of course there is also the international window we need to consider, as its only worth playing these teams if they are able to (1) get their best players on the park and (2) have some sort of decent preparation.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Send Australia A, Australian Barbarians, ARU Development XV or the Under 20's to play them, or Get IRB to underwrite inbound tours for the minnows to play the same.

 

[disco]

Yeah Australia A side tours would be wicked I always like watching the up & coming players.

Would love to see more of Samoa hopefully they start getting more games at full strength.

 

[vidiot]

Would love to see more of Samoa hopefully they start getting more games at full strength.

Ouch.

 

[tigerland12]

I agree sending an "A" side for a tour whilst the Wallabies are on their EOYT.

It benefits us by developing our younger players internationally and obviously it benefits the lower tier sides as they are still playing quality opposition.

One year play Canada and the USA then the next year play Romania and Russia, then Japan and Georgia the next.

The only nation who wouldn't benefit, Namibia, poor Namibia they are never going to develop unfourtunatly.

Edit: It's better then playing Munster or someone mid-week in cold and snow.

 

[Bowside]

'A' team tours may not help these countries as much you think as they often times lead to players getting capped for australia and then not being able to represent other countries when they are discarded by the high performance system.

From next yeah there will be a pacific 6 nations and irb sponsored November tours. I support the idea of playing mid week or stop over test matches but I dont think 'A' team tours are the way to go.

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

we should play these nations on the way to europe or midweek between the big tests instead of some club team like munster or Leicester. More than competitive results against the big kids from Japan, Tonga and Samoa at a time when they have their good players means we're getting to the point where 'lesser standard of play' is no longer a viable excuse to exclude them from competitions outside world cup. either change and expand the pacific nations cup into 4 Nations 'Div 2' or have a independent cup every couple of years outside of world cup and B&I Lions years. Tell the pacific islands +extras to get your best players released, build a decent stadium, prove you can fill it and you're in.

As for Europe, Italy were crap before they were part of 6 nations and routinely got flogged after they joined. Let Romania and Georgia (russia is a bit to early) take the plunge and they will be up there by 2023 RWC Italy/Argentina/USA.

 

[grievous]

Oz and NZ really need to pay more attention to the PIs, its not right we always look north for games. With financials in mind, yes, only play these teams if they have their best but look at the islander communities here, they can get up to 50,000 at the SFS with the above and marketing but fans have to know it will be a contest, Samoa have shown what can be achieved this year.

Bring their local player xv on tours and play Sydney, NSW/Qld Country, WA, Vic there can be some good sides put together outside the S15 teams.

And we please help our PNG brothers struggling against that other code, would an annual game against NT, Nth Qld or Qld Country kill anyone??If we take players from these PI teams lets give some back.

 

[James Buchanan]

One year play Canada and the USA then the next year play Romania and Russia, then Japan and Georgia the next.

Japan and Georgia makes zero sense. You're better off scheduling Russia and Georgia (since they're right next to each other and all) and Japan and a PI nation.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Send Australia A, Australian Barbarians, ARU Development XV or the Under 20's to play them, or Get IRB to underwrite inbound tours for the minnows to play the same.

The IRB make the ARU look good when it comes to development

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The IRB make the ARU look good when it comes to development

What this thread ignores, and I'm not being critical, is the set up of the game in the northern hemisphere. The quality players from all these teams are involved in european competitions where the clubs have first call on the players. its a throwback to the half arsed way in which the game was permitted by the Jeremy Softbottoms at the IRB to become professional.
The NH clubs seems to have been reluctant to release players even for the RWC so its hard to see them letting them go for anything less than test matches, at best.
I sense a confrontation given NZs justifiable complaint concerning RWC 2015 (which good taste suggests might have waited until everyone had left NZ) which the ARU are supporting: this is the modus operandi employed for every change in the game of any consequence - ELVs, the inability to kick out on the full from anywhere on the field, professionalism etc. etc.
For the good of the game NZ and OZ occasioanally have to hold the game to ransom - unless and until they do that with the minnows there is no will to change anything. Of course it could be helped by a more liberal attitude to oz S15 teams ving foreigners in their midst...

 

[Rugby Nick]

The problem is - why develop the PI nations? It sounds harsh (and probably bitter as they keep beating my team - Wales), but what advantage is in there for the IRB and really rugby long term - the Samoan captain called it when he was saying they should play Tier A sides, he pointed out that the IRB and co would have to fund them as they are only a small nation.

Now I would love these teams to do well, but when looked at for growth reasons are the PI sides really a worthwhile target? They dont have teh money to back themselves, dont have the support base to grow the game and dont have the industry to provide sponsorship opportunities. Compare that to teams like Georgia, Russia, USA, Canada and Japan who do have all these aspects, and a healthy growing base of fans who have an interest in rugby, and they should probably be the targets as they have people, money and real growth opportunities.

I would love the PIs to do well, so dont think this is me simply saying ignore them, but for the good of the long term growth of the game I am convinced we should be looking elsewhere.

 

[Rugby Nick]

The NH clubs seems to have been reluctant to release players even for the RWC so its hard to see them letting them go for anything less than test matches, at best.

With good reason. They are the people that pay the wages of these players, why would they allow nonpaying teams access when they dont have to? Int windows are there for a reason. NH club rugby is pretty healthy, and for many people more of an interest than the international scene as it is the team they get to support week in, week out

 

[Cutter]

The problem is - why develop the PI nations? It sounds harsh (and probably bitter as they keep beating my team - Wales), but what advantage is in there for the IRB and really rugby long term - the Samoan captain called it when he was saying they should play Tier A sides, he pointed out that the IRB and co would have to fund them as they are only a small nation.

Now I would love these teams to do well, but when looked at for growth reasons are the PI sides really a worthwhile target? They dont have teh money to back themselves, dont have the support base to grow the game and dont have the industry to provide sponsorship opportunities. Compare that to teams like Georgia, Russia, USA, Canada and Japan who do have all these aspects, and a healthy growing base of fans who have an interest in rugby, and they should probably be the targets as they have people, money and real growth opportunities.

I would love the PIs to do well, so dont think this is me simply saying ignore them, but for the good of the long term growth of the game I am convinced we should be looking elsewhere.

Rugby would be a lot poorer without the PI nations. In a system I've been advocating for a few years, a nation should be paid by an overseas club when that club signs them. The home nation would set the price. It would provide some finance for the home nation and, likely, reduce the number of overseas signings. For those countries that don't have a domestic competition (and therefore don't want to reduce their overseas signings), the players will have to take a small hit to their pay packets. Even if it were $10,000 per player per year, there must be at least 50 Samoans playing overseas and this would raise $500,000 per year. Similarly for Tonga, Fiji etc. It would make a big difference.

 

[Rugby Nick]

Rugby would be a lot poorer without the PI nations. In a system I've been advocating for a few years, a nation should be paid by an overseas club when that club signs them. The home nation would set the price. It would provide some finance for the home nation and, likely, reduce the number of overseas signings. For those countries that don't have a domestic competition (and therefore don't want to reduce their overseas signings), the players will have to take a small hit to their pay packets. Even if it were $10,000 per player per year, there must be at least 50 Samoans playing overseas and this would raise $500,000 per year. Similarly for Tonga, Fiji etc. It would make a big difference.

This is the important bit though, and why it would need considerable thought to make it work. If you are reducing the number of overseas signings then less samoans will be playing abroad. there is no way samoa can sustain a pro domestic league so all you are doing is making the signing of players from countries levvying this fee to be less desirable, when they can sign a different player and not have to pay this money out.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

But didn't I read somewhere that the Samoans and Tongans have become net importers of talent?

Plenty of players of Tongan, and Samoan extraction who were born in and have lived all their lives in the Land of Darkness or Here who are now playing for the country of their parents birth.

How do you work out where the money goes given this situation?

Natural talent from their genetic background, skills enhanced by the NZ/Aust development systems, and some have come through the mungoball development system. I can really imagine the Pommie RU clubs being happy to send money to Penrith Junior RL development programme.

What about Adam Burns? Should the Melb Rebels have to send some of his pay packet home to the Motherland?

Nice theory but a real can of worms to administer.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

With good reason. They are the people that pay the wages of these players, why would they allow nonpaying teams access when they dont have to? Int windows are there for a reason. NH club rugby is pretty healthy, and for many people more of an interest than the international scene as it is the team they get to support week in, week out

I realise that: thats the problem. The NH Unions do not control their own destiny let alone any one else's.
As I suggested the reason is that the RFU, for one, thought professional rugby would never happen, so the clubs snuck under their guard and had the players signed before the Blazer Brigade returned from South Africa in 1995.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I like the idea of using Australia A to play the likes of Georgia and co. Would also like to see the IRB fund incoming tours for these teams so we can take international Rugby to smaller centres around Australia.

In regards to the P.I's. I've said this before. But SANZAR needs to open up 5 squad places in each of the current 15/future 16 Super Rugby squad. Give 50% to the Argentineans and I'd be happy to have the other 50% roster spots filled by P.I players. That way they can make a living closer to home and be available for international duty around the same time as the current SANZAR nations.

 

[Richo]

I'd go to Aussie A v P.I. / minnow teams in a flash. Especially if the games were held in the afternoon. Presumably this would be a great way to get the game out of the big cities too.

 

[Antony]

In a system I've been advocating for a few years, a nation should be paid by an overseas club when that club signs them.

Really interesting model - how would it work? There's no enforceable relationship between player and country (unless they're centrally contracted, and there's nothing requiring players to sign such contracts) so it would have to be either:
a) a system voluntarily set up by the club associations of each country, with player eligibility hanging on satisfaction of this requirement; or
b) central-contracting being a condition of playing for your country (or some other incentive), such that we would probably see foreign-based PI players being pressured to entirely forego international honours.

The issue with the set up of PI teams is that they have no long-term legal rights over their players, so they can't compel adherence to a system like this (and nor can the IRB). Fresh idea though, and at only $10K a pop (with some room for flexibility in lower club leagues, etc.) we would probably see a reasonable degree of goodwill towards it from the big French/UK clubs and the like.