Not another "Four More Years Boys"

[Rugby Nick]

Do something like what Socceroos, Ghana etc did with playing their 'home' matches in England against European opposition in international weeks...one can do the same with Russian or Georgian teams to play dirt trackers of touring teams in the UK/France midweek.

thing is both Oz and ghana have sizable populations in the UK. Not sure either Georgia or Russia do

 

[liquor box]

a 6 team pool system would allow all teams to have the same amount of rest.

As much as I love Rugby, I dont need to see it every day of the week.

Friday, Saturday and Sunday games with 3 games a day. for 18 teams

 

[Rugby Nick]

a 6 team pool system would allow all teams to have the same amount of rest.

As much as I love Rugby, I dont need to see it every day of the week.

Friday, Saturday and Sunday games with 3 games a day. for 18 teams

giving 5 games for the pool stages...and 5 weeks of games (not to mention still complaints of some teams having 8 day turn arounds vs 5 days for others). Adding on extra time to the RWC is likely to be met with fierce opposition by English and French clubs - not to mention the fact that the RWC is already a very long tournie vs others such as the footie WC.

 

[Cardiffblue]

Aye that's the problem. Difficult enough geting English and French clubs to release players as it is. Can't operate the salary caps they have here. It'd be illegal

 

[Nusadan]

thing is both Oz and ghana have sizable populations in the UK. Not sure either Georgia or Russia do

Oh, am sure these Saffies, Wallabies and ABs have enough fans in these countries to make up enough interest at lower ticket prices (the prices at Twickenham for test matches are bloody ridiculous) at smaller grounds to make it worth the while...it'll be another revenue stream for these countries concerned.

Just realised that I might have not been very clear in the earlier post that what I meant by 'dirtrackers' I was referring to these above countries' A teams...it'd be a good way of them getting good matches against other international teams, albeit of a lower tier, rather than play against local club's reserve grade teams.

 

[Gnostic]

With good reason. They are the people that pay the wages of these players, why would they allow nonpaying teams access when they dont have to? Int windows are there for a reason. NH club rugby is pretty healthy, and for many people more of an interest than the international scene as it is the team they get to support week in, week out

And hence we will gt to a situation which I predicted after the 2007 RWC when the same arguments were floating around - Test Rugby will gradually be watered down and become nothing more than the soccer type friendlies outside of the 6N and 4N. The national Unions would be restricted to generating their funds from these tournaments solely.

I think there is a real danger that this is the last RWC, as I said on another thread. The ARU and NZRU have put their nuts on the block going public with threats to withdraw if commercial demands are not met, and that coupled with the real angst and frustration that is coming out of the PI nations, they could well follow. Also consider the very real erosion of support among a lot of fans for the concept, which we say on this very board.

Like I said on the other thread it would be ironic if the driving force behind the RWC ultimately caused its end as well. This raises another issue though, without the RWC to entice players to stay how many NZ and Oz stars would stay and play in the SH? If both unions maintain their no OS policies they could see their national teams very seriously weakened.

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

would be the right thing to do on many levels but would weaken the Wallabies, ABs and Bok by 20 players per annum - thats 80 players in a RWC cycle

Australians and NZ are way to worried about having to have local players only in their comp. Imagine if Rebels had no foreigners, we'd be even worse. England has no quota on foreign players in the premiership, although it does have 12 teams to spread them over. But it hasn't weekend their national team, if anything it's given their players a better standard of game each week as well as giving the fans a competition with a bit more international flavour. The number of teams in Super Rugby will increase anyway and i'd much rather classy foreign players from arg or the PI's like contepomi, fotuali'i or Tusi Pisi. taking the spots of crap australian players with no hope of playing wallabies than be stuck with someone like Julian Huxley frustrating me each week. It would increase the standard of super rugby which is going to become the major cash cow for Australian Rugby soon as it'll be where the majority of rugby fans see their top class rugby (especially in Melbourne and Perth).

 

[qwerty51]

Fotuali'i and Pisi have played Super rugby, they had to move on to get more opportunities

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

and they would likely be playing in it now (maybe for different teams) if the eligibility laws were not so stringent, fotuali'i only left after he chose to represent samoa.

 

[Rugby Nick]

Fotuali'i and Pisi have played Super rugby, they had to move on to get more opportunities

I dont really follow super rugby (catch maybe one game a weekend) so dont know how often he played but 'my team' (Ospreys) have just signed Khan, who I believe played some super rugby. We also signed another Samoan, Stowers, from London Irish - any idea if he played any super rugby?

 

[Rugby Nick]

England has no quota on foreign players in the premiership, although it does have 12 teams to spread them over.

That is key though, 12 teams to spread it over is important as it allows English youngsters who are below a foreign superstar the ability to find another club who are still playing top tier rugby. In Wales we only have 4 regions and it is far more important for us we manage the foreign aspect of the game. I can't remember the exact rules of our participation agreement now, but it is something like only 6 foreigners in the matchday 22 (think it might normally be 4 or 5, but 6 in a world cup year to cover for number of missing welshmen - in the 6N Ospreys missed 16 welsh players).

Even then it has caused problems. Until recently I think we only had one or 2 8's that were first choice and welsh, same for 6 and 7s. This caused all sorts of problems once the front line player got injured. In England they had some concern over the amount of foreign 10s and how talented youngsters werent getting a chance (though that has changed since).

It is impossible to have an open market when so much of the games finances are generated from the international rugby matches - countries need to protect their national squads as that is their cash cow. Only in England and France is this not 100% the case, and even then I know that through England's own participation agreement they pay a lot of money for access to players outside the int windows (which is why Welsh players in England dont play games outside the windows, and are often ignored - such as Peel and Nicky Robinson, simply because the WRU wont pay to access them).

 

[Inside Shoulder]

And hence we will gt to a situation which I predicted after the 2007 RWC when the same arguments were floating around - Test Rugby will gradually be watered down and become nothing more than the soccer type friendlies outside of the 6N and 4N. The national Unions would be restricted to generating their funds from these tournaments solely.

I think there is a real danger that this is the last RWC, as I said on another thread. The ARU and NZRU have put their nuts on the block going public with threats to withdraw if commercial demands are not met, and that coupled with the real angst and frustration that is coming out of the PI nations, they could well follow. Also consider the very real erosion of support among a lot of fans for the concept, which we say on this very board.

Like I said on the other thread it would be ironic if the driving force behind the RWC ultimately caused its end as well. This raises another issue though, without the RWC to entice players to stay how many NZ and Oz stars would stay and play in the SH? If both unions maintain their no OS policies they could see their national teams very seriously weakened.

Good post.
If the internationals become no more than friendlies between RWCs then Union in this country is goooorn - because its the only thing we have over league. The die hards watch the s. 15 but leaguies watch the tests. If the tests become meaningless, there will be a real temptation to use them as development and selection trials.
The situation in England (with which I am not familiar) seems incomparable to me because:
- the clubs (not the unions) own the players
- the distances involved in game travel are small
- no one comes down here from the UK (cipriani - waste of time; gregor townsend - out of depth) and they never come for the money
- greater population hence bigger markets hence more sponsor $$ and better gates up there
- 5 nations played in substantially 1 time zone
- Tv...assume time zone means plenty of coverage of games from France as well

You cannot reduce the restrictions on foreigners. We could not live with a situation where our primary test players had to get back from Europe for a test - like the wogballers do.

 

[Interloper]

Let's agree, there's one outcome we want, the second tier nations improving.

So what have been the barriers to that;
1.) Money, both the second tier nations inability to raise domestic revenue and thus tour, and the first team nations tight schedule (and funds) in getting to those nations.
2.) The (second tier) national teams not having enough time together playing high intensity games.
3.) The (second tier) teams having a mix of amatuer and pro players.

No. 3, I believe, can be fixed by No. 2. with some allowances made by No. 1.

NZ and Aus have opened pandora's box with their talks about pulling out of the World Cup. The RWCL and IRB have said that they need the money to support the tournament and the lesser teams. I say let regulated free market capitalism fix this.

We've already seen the Churchill Cup in the NH, England play America and Canada and a few others (Ireland A, Argentina A, NZ Maori, Russia, etc..) There are windows in the regular season for international sides to play. If those windows were also used for A Teams of the first tier teams to play in tournaments against the second tier teams, in the second tier nations' homes, it would allow for their sport to develop, the attraction of getting a scalp against the nominal first tier teams would hopefully drive the second tier nations' (STN) tv audience and gate receipts. I'm sure people would complain it would cost too much, and I'd try to minimise it for the STN by letting them play at home, but for everyone else make it on the proviso that they are allowed to use their full sponsors during the RWC.

If this means cutting the touring sides' games down by one, then so be it. I think most of us are getting sick of watching the same teams swap stadium to play ever spring and autumn, for nothing more than giving the NH teams a confidence boost, or to let the SH teams go on a roll. The domestic game seems to be a much bigger draw for the average fan, with more invested in it. We're just getting bored of each other and it needs a world cup before we all get excited about the national game (3N and 6N Excluded.)

 

[Inside Shoulder]

it costs a lot of money to set up an Australia A team: players, coaches, medical, air fares etc....spend it on the junior comps in Australia: the ARU only exists because of them and they are its only real stake holders.
The IRB has to start spending the enormous sums they generate every 4 years on fostering the game at all levels in all places.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Mike Miller sounds like he understands the game:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/r...-replaceable-at-world-cup-20111004-1l5um.html

 

[Bowside]

it costs a lot of money to set up an Australia A team: players, coaches, medical, air fares etc....spend it on the junior comps in Australia: the ARU only exists because of them and they are its only real stake holders.
The IRB has to start spending the enormous sums they generate every 4 years on fostering the game at all levels in all places.

I agree. The money spent on Australia A tours would be better spent of grass roots competition where it will go a lot further.

 

[tigerland12]

I dont really follow super rugby (catch maybe one game a weekend) so dont know how often he played but 'my team' (Ospreys) have just signed Khan, who I believe played some super rugby. We also signed another Samoan, Stowers, from London Irish - any idea if he played any super rugby?

Well your club just signed Samoa's best two players at the WC. George Stowers impressed me greatly, he is one to look out for.

 

[Rugby Nick]

What this thread ignores, and I'm not being critical, is the set up of the game in the northern hemisphere. The quality players from all these teams are involved in european competitions where the clubs have first call on the players. its a throwback to the half arsed way in which the game was permitted by the Jeremy Softbottoms at the IRB to become professional.
The NH clubs seems to have been reluctant to release players even for the RWC so its hard to see them letting them go for anything less than test matches, at best.

Whilst I agree that it was half arsed the way it happened, the fact is the club model is a solid one that seems to be getting results in terms of sustainability - by contrast an article here in a NZ paper (I forget which) was today saying an advisory board the NZRU commissioned for the game going forwards is going to suggest they move back to private ownership of teams, as well as individual sponsorship deals, as financially the current model is unsustainable.

I've got to admit I would think that the franchises living and dying as individual entities makes more sense commercially, and like it or not (and I really don't) the commercial reality is something that we all have to live with. If I were the NZRU going down that route I would look to the Irish model which seems to mix individualism with central contracts very well (as opposed to the Welsh half arsed regional approach, or the English club centric one).

 

[young gun]

Its quite simple, PI athletes are so entertaining and so much to our game. How could rugby be the same without them.

Exactly - that wrap around movement Samoa did against South Africa did more good for the game than any amount of rolling mauls by "Tier 1" teams. The ball just seemed to stop in the air and waited for the 5/8 to collect it - brilliant. The P.I teams have done more for rugby than what they sometimes get credit for - these moments of brilliance turn into $, it's just not as obvious.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Whilst I agree that it was half arsed the way it happened, the fact is the club model is a solid one that seems to be getting results in terms of sustainability - by contrast an article here in a NZ paper (I forget which) was today saying an advisory board the NZRU commissioned for the game going forwards is going to suggest they move back to private ownership of teams, as well as individual sponsorship deals, as financially the current model is unsustainable.

I've got to admit I would think that the franchises living and dying as individual entities makes more sense commercially, and like it or not (and I really don't) the commercial reality is something that we all have to live with. If I were the NZRU going down that route I would look to the Irish model which seems to mix individualism with central contracts very well (as opposed to the Welsh half arsed regional approach, or the English club centric one).

I have a bad feeling about rugby in NZ and Aus just at the moment although I fully support the NZRU in their stance re sponsorship at future RWCs.
Do we have the clout to stare down the IRB?
If we dont then we will be the outsiders with the major nations and neither NZ nor Aus has the money to "stand alone".
So an expanded NPC in which we are allowed to play: sounds fanbloodytastic for a tragic but I doubt it woul be sustainable.
So there's always the NRL to save us........