Northern Hemisphere Rugby Season 14/15

[the plastic paddy]

If we didn't know Matt O'Connor was a clown before, we do now as he starts Boss ahead of Reddan. Unbelievable selection.

 

[BabyBlueElephant]

If we didn't know Matt O'Connor was a clown before, we do now as he starts Boss ahead of Reddan. Unbelievable selection.

I really like Boss as a player, I thought he has been very underrated throughout his career, and if age wasn't against him should of received a few more international caps between 2010-2012.

But bloody hell the guys having a stinker of a season. Reddan should be starting in home games for intensity alone. Reddan makes the Irish matchday 23, to not start the guy in a home Euro game is mad.

Can't see us getting a try bonus point against an average Quins side, we seem to just be playing to scrape a win. Hope I'm wrong however.

 

[Bardon]

Matt O'Connor really is a bad fit for Leinster. Cheika and Schmidt might be hard acts to follow but I can't see a single area where he's even maintained standards let alone improved anything.

As I said earlier in the thread I'm not really pleased with where any of the Irish provinces are presently. Munster seem to be making progress in turning things around after the departure of Tony McGahan but it's going to be a long process. Ulster are really struggling with taking that next step where they can consistently deliver in big games. Connacht are making strides under Pat Lam and have the most positives. Leinster are just a mess. It's a long way away from a few years ago when Irish sides struck fear into Europe's best.

It'll take a huge improvement from one of the provinces if we're going to have an Irish team in the semi final of the Euro Cup or w/e it's called now.

 

[Bardon]

I really like Boss as a player, I thought he has been very underrated throughout his career, and if age wasn't against him should of received a few more international caps between 2010-2012.

But bloody hell the guys having a stinker of a season. Reddan should be starting in home games for intensity alone. Reddan makes the Irish matchday 23, to not start the guy in a home Euro game is mad.

Can't see us getting a try bonus point against an average Quins side, we seem to just be playing to scrape a win. Hope I'm wrong however.

If Leinster were developing players at the rate we were a few years ago Boss wouldn't be in the 23 for a big game and probably on the bench in Pro12 games when players were rested.

 

[mxyzptlk]

If the team had not been playing together for the first time in nearly two months (thanks Joe) I think we would have seen a sharper display,something I expect on Sunday.

I'm not about to blame Joe Schmidt for the failings of any of the provinces this season -- that's a cop-out, especially when the players manage to perform basic skills in the few weeks with the national set-up that they flub back home. If they can only transfer a ball when Joe Schmidt is coaching, they should just imagine he's always watching (because he is). And if spending time with the national set-up made players rusty for their clubs, Robshaw, Marler and Brown wouldn't have played one of their better Quins games of late against Leinster.

In other news, JJ Hanrahan is starting at 12 at Clermont. Just a cynical ploy to keep Hanrahan at home (YOU ARE WANTED), or is this going to be something consistent? I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Matt O'Connor really is a bad fit for Leinster. Cheika and Schmidt might be hard acts to follow but I can't see a single area where he's even maintained standards let alone improved anything.

When he came in, MOC said he wanted to improve Leinster's defense, and he helped develop that last year. But it looks like even those standards have slipped this season. Plus they're hardly scoring tries.

You do hear talk about the team's injury profile that MOC has to deal with (especially missing their two biggest ball-carriers), but that only gets you so far. Players who have played every (or nearly every) minute of every (or nearly every) game this season shouldn't be dropping passes and committing handling errors by this point. He jerked around Madigan and only recently started to play him consistently at 12, but everyone knows he was the in-form 10 while a decent 12 in need of experience rode the bench (Noel Reid). And the recruits -- Ben Te'o is still an unknown quantity but seemed confused around the rucks in his 20 minutes,* Kane Douglas has been hot and cold, and Zane Kirchner spends more time waiting to get on the field than he does on the field.

What's strange is that he was credited with opening up Leicester's offense in the Premiership under Cockerill, but can't seem to get it together as a head coach in the supposedly lesser-quality PRO 12.** Maybe MOC is a better indian than a chief.

* How many southern hemisphere players, league or union, went north with an injury or were injured almost immediately? Te'o, Bleyendaal, Burgess, Thorn, Muliaina, Aki, and I'm sure some I'm missing, especially in France.

** The Premiership is probably, arguably, stronger overall, at least on the field and definitely in the back rooms and bank accounts. There's probably a bigger gulf in quality between the better teams in the PRO12 and the teams lower on the ladder than there is between the better teams in the Premiership down to Newcastle and London Irish. (London Welsh is the exception there. I wish they were either in Zebre or the Dragons' pool in the Challenge Cup -- I'd just like to know who would win those games.)

 

[Highlander35]

On the Champions Cup, not a great game from players, coaches or officials. Obviously Bath are the 2nd worst team on the pitch, but they're not 17 points less bad.

 

[JSRF10]

MOC seems to be digging his own grave. How anyone could think Boss is a top level scrum half any more is beyond me. Feel a bit sorry for Gopperth at this stage, he is in terrible form, the fans are frustrated and it looks like he just needs a break.

Also having seen Sam Burgress' introduction to Union I'm calling expensive flop right now. Consistantly kills the attack due to his lack of hands, just another Lesley Vianakolo IMO.

 

[BabyBlueElephant]

Pinpointing why MOC is so disliked has been a debate on other boards. One of the main conclusions isn't that were not as successful in Europe anymore, as to be fair you attribute that to expectations being higher after Schmidt. But instead the general feel is that we have regressed and our game has not come on one bit - and that more importantly it feels like theres no general direction the team seems to head in. Under Cheiks it was clear we wanted to have a ferocious defence and a respect deserving tight five. Under Schmidt from the start, he said he wanted Leinster to be the best passing side in Europe and by far that was proven. Under MOC theres no general sense of direction, Leinster look like a side trying to live off past reputation and players being individuals. The team is running on fumes - that is were running off individual skills and a winning mentality from previous coaches.

Its darkest before dawn as they say, we need better coaches, losing Gibbes last year has seen our pack, one of the saving graces of the team last year, also go to crap. Leinster obliterated the Toulon scrum last year, and are now getting served up by a Quins pack who, bar Marler, is very very average (Or nowhere near in quality to one containing Hayman, Bakkies etc).

 

[mxyzptlk]

On the Champions Cup, not a great game from players, coaches or officials. Obviously Bath are the 2nd worst team on the pitch, but they're not 17 points less bad.

You mean Montpelier, right?

 

[Highlander35]

Worded poorly. Bath are playing really poorly. But Montpellier are so bad its embarrassing to watch. Throw in some inconsistent officiating, and some that's objectively wrong, and you have a game where Bath should simultaneously be ahead by more, but don't deserve to be leading by 20 either.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Pinpointing why MOC is so disliked has been a debate on other boards. One of the main conclusions isn't that were not as successful in Europe anymore, as to be fair you attribute that to expectations being higher after Schmidt.

Just look at the tries scored in Europe -- which should be one of the criteria for judging the quality of a side:

• Against Wasps - 3 tries
• Against Castres - 0 tries
• Against Quins - 0 tries

And in the PRO 12, since October (when the Heineken European Cup kicked off), they managed one try and one penalty try against Munster, and didn't cross the line against Ospreys. They put a few on Zebre, Treviso and Edinburgh, but so have everyone else. Scoring tries against the teams at the bottom of the table shouldn't be the standard.

He doesn't have to be compared to Joe Schmidt -- no one should. But by any standard, they're scoring fewer tries, and for a guy who was brought in to be an attack coach and for a team with the firepower they have, that's not right.

(Are those other debates on boards.ie?)

 

[mxyzptlk]

and you have a game where Bath should simultaneously be ahead by more, but don't deserve to be leading by 20 either.

That was worded quite well.

 

[Bardon]

Under Cheiks it was clear we wanted to have a ferocious defence and a respect deserving tight five. Under Schmidt from the start, he said he wanted Leinster to be the best passing side in Europe and by far that was proven. Under MOC theres no general sense of direction, Leinster look like a side trying to live off past reputation and players being individuals. The team is running on fumes - that is were running off individual skills and a winning mentality from previous coaches.

That really is a major part of the problem at Leinster. It's fostered a we need our best 15 guys on the field to win mentality that wasn't there under Cheika or Schmidt. Yes guys like Healy and SOB would have been missed in the past but we'd be talking about Leinster winning despite those guys being abscent.

That's what I really like about Cheika and Schmidt. It wasn't just the players that were the threat it was the systems and guys being able to slot in and out of the team as needed. The second and third choice guys had the same expectations as the regular starters. Under MOC it almost seems like the replacements are being told to do their best until the starters are back when everything will magically be all roses again.

If this Leinster team make the QFs I think most teams would be happy to draw them the way they're playing. You wouldn't really be scare going to either the RDS or the Aviva to play them and if you had them at home you'd be tempted to start making plans for the semi finals.

As you said they just lack bite and they don't do anything well. To be a real threat in Europe you need to do something better than anyone else. MOC's Leinster team can't say that. In the Pro12 they do well because of the incredible accademy there that allows them to pick up points when the internationals are away on test duty.

But in Europe having good players isn't enough. You have to be able to break top teams down and score tries while being very hard to score against yourself. At times this year Leinster have looked like they could play all day and not score a try against a top team. Coupled with defensive lapses and a shaky set piece they just don't inspire confidence.

Whoever eventually takes over from MOC is going to have a tough task. They'll probably have to give young guys a lot more playing time while also trying to fix pretty much every facet of Leinster's play.

 

[Bardon]

He doesn't have to be compared to Joe Schmidt -- no one should. But by any standard, they're scoring fewer tries, and for a guy who was brought in to be an attack coach and for a team with the firepower they have, that's not right.

Schmidt really has set the bar high and he was going to be a tough act to follow for anyone. I agree with you again, for me it's not about matching what Joe did, it's about looking at what MOC has done well and that's really hard to see. The team look clueless in attack, supposedly his area of expertise.

Leinster remind me of the Irish team towards the end of DK's reign, absolutely toothless in attack. It's very rare these days to win against a top team in Europe without scoring tries and if you manage it your defence has to be rock solid or the other team have been whistled off the park. Leinster don't have the defence for the former nor the set piece to force the latter.

 

[Lee Grant]

The Pom commentators went ape-shit every time Sam Burgess did something for Bath last night.

In truth he is doing pretty well and if there's one area that England needs a bit of zing, it's in the midfield.

We Aussies hardly ever want Poms to do well in any sport but Burgess is a good lad, very popular with the average Aussie sports fan on the east coast because of the rugby league games that flood our television sets.

To some of my in-laws, who are South Sydney tragics, he is like a demi-god.

I wish him well, though not too well mind when he wears the white jersey with the rose on it, as I think he will.
.

 

[Bairdy]

Spending my quiet Saturday night watching some European Rugby.

If you are able to watch on tv or via stream, I suggest watching the Toulon v Leicester match on right now. A very niggly, combative match

 

[mxyzptlk]

The Pom commentators went ape-shit every time Sam Burgess did something for Bath last night.

In truth he is doing pretty well and if there's one area that England needs a bit of zing, it's in the midfield.

We Aussies hardly ever want Poms to do well in any sport but Burgess is a good lad, very popular with the average Aussie sports fan on the east coast because of the rugby league games that flood our television sets.

To some of my in-laws, who are South Sydney tragics, he is like a demi-god.

I wish him well, though not too well mind when he wears the white jersey with the rose on it, as I think he will.
.

Did you see his recent interview in ESPN Scrum? He said "no disrespect," but union was a lot harder than he expected. He's a talented athlete and he'll come around, but I think it's questionable if he'll be ready for the next World Cup. Maybe as a squad member, but I don't know if he'll be able to both transition his skillset and learn what he needs to learn in time.

 

[Bardon]

I think one of the things in Burgess' favour is that England don't have a settled midfield. No one is really nailed on and the one player who might be, Tuilagi, seems to pick up a lot of injuries. It'll be much easier for him to get game time with England than if he had the added task of trying to shift a nailed on starter out of their position.

I don't think he's going to be a failure like Andy Farrell was but the RWC is probably a little too soon for him to really show what he's got in union. I think he'll make the England RWC squad if he contiues to develop at Bath. It'll probably mean Eastmond and possibly Twelvetrees missing out on the RWC with Barrett, Tuilagi and Burrell being the other centres picked if fit.

 

[kandos]

Sam Burgess. Yes of course it's much more difficult. Reminds me of SBW's comments, i.e., League was that bit more physically demanding because the ball's in play more, but Union's just as tiring because there's a lot more thinking to do. And Sam's up against players just as big as him. The other thing I like about him is that he's humble enough to admit he's got an awful lot to learn.

Judging him on one game's unfair. Bath's organisation was awful and they played accordingly. There was a definite disconnect between backs and forwards. Montpellier were crap as well, but better than the previous weekend, which shows how abject they were in the French leg.