Northern Hemisphere Rugby Season 14/15

[Dctarget]

Can't Etzebeth still play for the Boks? Not too much of coup surely?

 

[mxyzptlk]

3 loses in 9 years and it looks like less of a fortress, come off it. Hardest ground out side of the AB t Eden Park to win.

Easy there - three losses in 9 years in Euro-wide competition, but they've also lost that many in Thomond this year alone. I'm not saying they're a sinking ship, far from it, just that it's a ship picking speed again. I don't think a fully-firing Munster loses to Edinburgh at Thomond Park, but Munster lost to Edinburgh at Thomond this season.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Can't Etzebeth still play for the Boks? Not too much of coup surely?

If it's like Habana's contract, he can, but only in Tests that occur within the approved international window, and he may be called back to play for Toulon within days of a Test.

Etzebeth seems like the kind of player who could handle that, but it may age him prematurely.

I've wondered -- if you put Etzebeth and Liam Williams from Wales in a room together, who starts the fight?

 

[qwerty51]

Can't Etzebeth still play for the Boks? Not too much of coup surely?

Why does that make it less of a coup?

 

[the plastic paddy]

Can't Etzebeth still play for the Boks? Not too much of coup surely?

Boudellaj is talking about clubs being compensated by all the unions for player release for internationals. Unfortunately he and his fellow club owners now have control of the club game in the NH so they have a lot more leverage. When the RWC is over the owners in England will start chucking their weight about. If the unions had held firm and faced them down over the Heineken cup they would have retained some control but the Scots broke ranks at the eleventh hour. When the French clubs start demanding money from the South Africans to release Eztebeth for tests, even in the international window, there will be little the Unions can now do about it. How on earth the ARU will be able to compete financially with the French clubs was obviously not a concern for the back stabbing Scottish Union.

 

[Highlander35]

Why would it be, when owning Murrayfield was the only thing stopping us from being insolvent? What the SRU did was ultimately no different from what the ARU did in creating this funky ass conglomerate known as Super Rugby 2016. All these cuts that passionate fans on one side or the other are abusing each other on other threads? HAd been there, done that for years.

I'm not going to bother trying to convince you Paddy, we're obviously set in our ways. For mine, the SRU did their job, took the deal that would ensure the best short term, medium term, and long term future of Rugby Union, in Scotland. You almost make me wish it had been an actual betrayal, for no financial reward, just for the additional scorn.

 

[the plastic paddy]

At least we agree it was pure self interest from Scotland and fuck everyone else. I won't be shedding any tears when the English and French come calling for the Glasgow players after the RWC when there is going to be a bloodbath of players.

 

[Highlander35]

Have you been living under a rock for the past decade? Changes nothing for Scottish Rugby. There's been an Irish-esque transformation at Glasgow, but we can't compete with the massive tax incentives offered in Ireland.

Just from last season, Cusiter, Low, Jackson and McGuigan, all gone to English clubs. Before that, we've lost the Killer Bs, The Lamonts, Euan Murray, Scott Lawson and Big Richie. Some came back, others didn't. Matawalu is likely to leave. Wouldn't be surprised if Weir, Seymour/Maitland, Grant/Reid, and probably Jonny gone too. That's life as a Scottish fan. Difference is now there's a chance to somewhat change that.

Scotland:
are the 2nd or 3rd worst tier 1 Nation.
haven't won an A game in god knows how long
have an abysmal Sevens team despite a rich heritage
have 2 professional outfits, the 2nd Lowest of any tier 1 nation
have the worst junior pathway development of any tier 1 or 2 nations
had the largest debt of a Union in the Northern Hemisphere
have no tax incentives to help keep players
Least professional domestic league in the 6 Nations.
etc.

Doing nothing wasn't going to fix that. That something might be the thing that destroys Irish and Welsh Rugby. But that something might save Scottish Rugby, and that's all anyone can and should expect from the SRU.

I know you hate Nigels cup with a passion, but at the halfway point, we've had a fabulous group stage. Everybody else gets the money before the English and French, so if it comes up short, they lose. Challenge cup does need fixing though.

 

[BabyBlueElephant]

Bit late but bloody hell I hate Toulon. I used to love Clermont as a Leinster fan due to their brand of rugby, but if I'm hating on Toulon I need to dislike Clermont too, alongside Toulouse and Stade Francais. The fans of Toulouse, Toulon and Clermont are lovely, Clermont being the pick, if you get a chance to ever go to the Marcel Michelin, go, you won't ever go to a better rugby or perhaps even sporting atmosphere ever.

But anyway, it feels like rugby in Europes just going to get more dominated by Toulon and Clermont and finally Toulouse when they get things right again. And theres pretty much nothing you can do about it. Fair enough if its from good coaches and tactics, or developed home grown players, but when you can buy Etzebeth like that who's in the prime of his career thats ridiculous. Their squads already ridiculous and their adding Nonu next year as well, with either him or Gits getting demoted to the bench.

I miss old Euro rugby when you'd have genuine real clubs who may have one or two Saffas or Kiwi's in the teams that'd spice things up due to their different skill sets. Having prized AB or Bok stars glittered all over teams just makes it feel like every other team is cannon fodder. I can't stand Boudjellal, he's ruined one of the best competitions in rugby. I fear that the Irish provinces and the English teams are now just going to be playing gallant second bests to the French Baa Baa teams.

 

[the plastic paddy]

Have you been living under a rock for the past decade? Changes nothing for Scottish Rugby. There's been an Irish-esque transformation at Glasgow, but we can't compete with the massive tax incentives offered in Ireland.

Just from last season, Cusiter, Low, Jackson and McGuigan, all gone to English clubs. Before that, we've lost the Killer Bs, The Lamonts, Euan Murray, Scott Lawson and Big Richie. Some came back, others didn't. Matawalu is likely to leave. Wouldn't be surprised if Weir, Seymour/Maitland, Grant/Reid, and probably Jonny gone too. That's life as a Scottish fan. Difference is now there's a chance to somewhat change that.

Scotland:
are the 2nd or 3rd worst tier 1 Nation.
haven't won an A game in god knows how long
have an abysmal Sevens team despite a rich heritage
have 2 professional outfits, the 2nd Lowest of any tier 1 nation
have the worst junior pathway development of any tier 1 or 2 nations
had the largest debt of a Union in the Northern Hemisphere
have no tax incentives to help keep players
Least professional domestic league in the 6 Nations.
etc.

Doing nothing wasn't going to fix that. That something might be the thing that destroys Irish and Welsh Rugby. But that something might save Scottish Rugby, and that's all anyone can and should expect from the SRU.

I know you hate Nigels cup with a passion, but at the halfway point, we've had a fabulous group stage. Everybody else gets the money before the English and French, so if it comes up short, they lose. Challenge cup does need fixing though.

It is a disaster of a format which has produced seven of the eight quarter finalists before the second round was up because of the stupid seeding system, but the rugby side of the Nigels cup doesn't worry me, the likes of Boudellaj, Wray, Lonzeretti and Craig being in charge of the whole of the club game in the NH certainly does. As you say, the SRU looked out for themselves and said fuck everyone else. If they had stayed with the unions the Nigels would have been sent packing. They took the pieces of silver and everyone else will pay for it. As it happens, I think Irish rugby will be ok but I fear for Australia, in particular, with these lunatics in charge of the asylum. If the Saffers can't compete with a French club what chance has a union as short of cash as Australia?

 

[the plastic paddy]

Nasty rumours in and around Munster. Killer and Cronin might both be out for Sunday and even worse talk that JJ could be off to the Stains!!!! Hopefully it is contract talk but it has made it into the IT and one of the suspected journalist lurkers on MF brought it up a couple of days ago.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Nasty rumours in and around Munster. Killer and Cronin might both be out for Sunday and even worse talk that JJ could be off to the Stains!!!! Hopefully it is contract talk but it has made it into the IT and one of the suspected journalist lurkers on MF brought it up a couple of days ago.

We have it on good authority (2012 Junior Player of the Year nominee) that Hanrahan likes to play rugby. Dropping from 11 starts to 2 sends a pretty good signal that that's not what he's in Munster to do -- which is a damn shame because he can offer something at center, and Munster have been light there.

But if he's off, from an Irish perspective, that's not necessarily a bad thing. He'll be getting more playing time and development, and it won't cost Ireland anything to do it. The IRFU most likely won't be able to manage his workload like they might want to, but they'll have a better prospect on their hands than if his butt kept polishing the bench.

 

[Lee Grant]

Clermont vs Munster was a good game. Brilliant defence from Clermont and uncharacteristic errors from munster decided the result. Clermont are the third team to beat munster in Ireland, in the Heineken/European cup in over 50 attempts, also they are the first french team to do so.

The game of the round for me.

Munster were not at their best but you can pull something out of your backside to win games at the death only so many times, and Munster can't complain with their success rate in that department over the years.

Munster will play a lot better than that but they need a better outhalf.

Clermont was superb. Their defence was relentless and how gutsy was Chouly to make the call to oppose that Munster five metre lineout at the end, and how deft to then poach the ball himself right in front of POC?

A top game - can Munster do a Clermont at Clermont come Sunday?
.

 

[Lee Grant]

I've wondered -- if you put Etzebeth and Liam Williams from Wales in a room together, who starts the fight?

Probably Jamie Cudmore.
.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Munster will play a lot better than that but they need a better outhalf.

And it looks like their better outhalf is going to the Premiership to play for Northampton.

I like watching all the Irish provinces, but this year it seems like a Munster-Leinster race to see who can waste more opportunities, on and off the pitch.

Ulster are just now starting to get it together, but are at least taking chances. And then there's Connacht, just winning all their home games and playing great rugby whenever and wherever they can. Cead mile failte, Pat Lam.

 

[the plastic paddy]

And it looks like their better outhalf is going to the Premiership to play for Northampton.

I like watching all the Irish provinces, but this year it seems like a Munster-Leinster race to see who can waste more opportunities, on and off the pitch.

Ulster are just now starting to get it together, but are at least taking chances. And then there's Connacht, just winning all their home games and playing great rugby whenever and wherever they can. Cead mile failte, Pat Lam.

Munster were piss poor against Clermont but have been very good this season since the usual first two crap performances. Whether stuffing a Matt O'Connor coached Leinster in Landsdowne Road was much of an achievement I am not sure.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Whether stuffing a Matt O'Connor coached Leinster in Landsdowne Road was much of an achievement I am not sure.

When they first won I thought it was a good win over Leinster. A few weeks later, that thought started to fade.

 

[the plastic paddy]

When they first won I thought it was a good win over Leinster. A few weeks later, that thought started to fade.

In relation to Matt O'Connor, who cannot be sent packing from Irish rugby soon enough, I agree. However, judging Munster on last weekends terrible display is unfair, imho. We beat Saracens, who beat Clermont, very comfortably. Let's see how they get on in Clermont, no one gives Munster the faintest scent of a prayer which is just the way they like it. That said, I think Harlequins will be beaten in LR with a try BP.

 

[mxyzptlk]

In relation to Matt O'Connor, who cannot be sent packing from Irish rugby soon enough, I agree. However, judging Munster on last weekends terrible display is unfair, imho. We beat Saracens, who beat Clermont, very comfortably. Let's see how they get on in Clermont, no one gives Munster the faintest scent of a prayer which is just the way they like it. That said, I think Harlequins will be beaten in LR with a try BP.

I'm not judging Munster entirely on last weekend's display -- I'm judging them against their past few seasons. I also don't think they've slipped as much as Leinster have under O'Connor, and I don't think that Foley is a bad choice for head coach. I do think they're trying to rebuild while they try to manage that thing called Traditional Munster Values (TM) -- which they seem less focused on than the media, but they're meeting it half-way.

Right now they're missing some spark they showed in previous seasons, and I'd say are playing at maybe 15% below where they were last year. It's still enough to win most games, and they always up their intensity for European competition, but when they're starting at a bit below where they have in the past, they can't quite get up as high as they need to for those bigger games -- but they're improving. The Clermont game seemed to be a perfect example of that.

Munster's forward-based play is part of what Jono Gibbes Clermont took advantage of by using shooters on defense; that helped stop Munster at and behind the gain line, and stunted the pick-and-go around the fringe. Granted, Wayne Barnes seems to have an offside blind spot* (a number of those shooters really flirted with being offsides), but Munster also couldn't get their line-out or maul working.

Munster can usually win those physical battles, but Clermont matched them physically and slowed or shut them down at the front, and that pressure often disrupted Munster play by leading to handling errors. There were only a few times when Munster could really get their forwards rolling on phase after phase, and their best runs of that were later in the second half, which was too late. That means Munster needed to use Plan B (TM), where the backs could get more involved and exploit any space or overlaps left open by the blitz.

But which of their backs playing right now are the game-breakers? The guy they brought in shore up some of that backfield play, Bleyendaal, arrived injured; Keith Earls has become Munster's Luke Fitzgerald (it's unusual when he isn't injured); and JJ Hanrahan is pulling splinters out of his arse and gazing across the Irish Sea (but since Munster haven't been employing the backs much this season, it's hard to say if giving Hanrahan some time on the pitch would have made a difference). Their wings and fullbacks were used mainly for returning kicks, but you didn't see them chasing some of those deeper kicks.

On top of that, Munster's general tactical kicking game wasn't on point. Many kicks were either finding the opposition or, if they found space, rolled on through the try zone (again, with little pressure from chasers). Murray's box kicks were good, but since Clermont were shooting in and shutting down any forward momentum, Murray was generally limited to box kicks and had difficulty getting his passing game going.

Had Munster got its kicking game going, tried to use their backs for more than returning kicks once the forward game was shut down, and eliminated some of the handling errors, it's a closer game.

But if this is to be a Munster/Leinster debate, Munster have a lot more to build on than Leinster do at the moment. At least Munster had a few moments of putting phases together. It's been a while since Leinster have shown that kind of urgency.

* Sweet Jeebus is Barnes a horrorshow. Couldn't spot offsides, pinged Munster regularly for closing the gap on line-outs but never once saw Clermont doing the same thing, and couldn't spot a crooked line-out throw-in if he was on top of the ball. In the first half he missed one crooked Clermont throw-in that was so misaligned it went half a meter behind the Clermont jumper on the Clermont side. Plus he's techy; a side can't complain to Barnes without him trying to re-assert dominance over that side by pinging them. He does love his whistle.

 

[the plastic paddy]

I agree with much of that but Munster's handling errors at the maul/ Lineout made the gain line much more of a battle IMHO. If the team had not been playing together for the first time in nearly two months (thanks Joe) I think we would have seen a sharper display,something I expect on Sunday.