New Zealand v Wallabies, Eden Park, Sat 22nd October

[tragic]

F@#k me - one step forward two steps back.
Cheika is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
That is all

 

[tragic]

Our starting XV needs to step up

Hopefully:
Hooper plays as a more conventional OSF.
.

You mean play more like the guy on the bench - the one that's been touted as one of the best traditional OSF in the world but can't crack the wallabies starting lineup??

 

[Micheal]

You mean play more like the guy on the bench - the one that's been touted as one of the best OSF in the world but can't crack the wallabies starting lineup??

Come off it. It has been widely acknowledged both this site and beyond that Poey's been largely ineffective in 2016 and I think in terms of form Hooper's shown a lot more this season. Not only that, but Pocock's been out for ~4 weeks with a broken hand and was touch and go until this morning as to whether he'd be fit.

So yeah, coming off the bench isn't the worst option.

As for my opinions on the wider team - I'm happy to see Timani playing more of a traditional 8 role as I think the teams been lacking a bit of physicality in both offensive and defensive contact.

I'd be even happier to see Mumm fade into obscurity, but yet again hes been selected. I can kind of understand it as I don't think hes been as bad as people point him out to be, or as stats (E.g. missed tackles) infer that he has been. That being said, he's still been shite and I don't understand how his competitive advantage (the lineout) can get you selected for a national team.

Just imagine him standing next to Kaino. What an absolute embarrassment. I've seen more imposing players in the Betoota Dolphins u13 Bs.

Unfortunately, I don't see Fardy as a huge upgrade based on current form and given they're both thereabouts on lineout ability I really can't blame Cheika for selecting him. I just hope another Aussie 6 puts their hand up in Super Rugby next year (Higgers please fulfil your potential). Either that or Cheika should gamble on a rookie 6 thats shown a bit of something in the NRC this year. Figg or Dempsey would be my pick, with the former playing some absolutely unreal rugby throughout the tournament. Surely whatever Mumm can do he can do better.

I'm indifferent between Foley and Cooper at 10. I think Quade obviously offers more in terms of mixing up the point of attack and in terms of general team structure but I think Foley offers a bit more consistency and a bit more starch in defense (don't quote the stats I've seen them I don't think they reflect the entire story yadda yadda yadda). If Foley doesn't perform then theres no reason to not start Quade in the next game. Now or never Bernard.

I'm excited to see Hodge at 12 with Kerevi at 13. Hodge'll be given a chance to showcase his ball-playing skills and hopefully they can solidify themselves as the Wallabies 12 / 13 for a fair few years to come.

I like the back three yet would've prefer Sefa over Speight as I feel the latter hasn't offered much in Super Rugby / NRC for a while now.

Love the lock partnership. Not keen on Simmons as a back-up lock. Only one of the powderpuff twins (Mumm and Simmons) should be in the 23 at any given time. Cheika should close them in a cage and make them fight to the death for the Gold jersey. Maybe not actually. It'd probably last over a week and even then one of them would only die because of natural causes (starvation / hydration) as neither of them have an aggressive bone in their body.

Don't mind the starting front-row front-row. Kepu's been better than he's gotten credit for. Would like to see Slipper on the bench but Robertsons taken his chances and Slipper had a poor performance when last selected (TWAS Robertson and AAA did indeed win a scrum penalty when last on the park).

Poey off the bench how good. Quade and Sefa off the bench how good.

Hanson and Frisby probably not off the bench as Cheika has trust issues. How bad.

Wallabies tomorrow how good. An early game how good. Eden Park how good.

This is man hour for the Wallabies. Cometh the hour cometh the man. Lets see how they get up for it. Even if they lose I'll still love them as I'm not a miserable prick unlike a fair few here.

Get excited.

 

[Joe Blow]

It would really be playing with fire starting Cooper at 10 at Eden Park with two relative novices on his outside. Foley has the much cooler head and will be better at directing Hodge in his new role.
Hodge at 1st or second receiver will give us some good exit distance if utilised well and will shore up the midfield on AB turnover ball. They score a lot of points through this channel. I reckon we will see Foley-Beale at 10-12 as soon as the latter is available. We need to see something from Reece in attack to justify his selection.
Simmons on the bench is an odd one. Surely Douglas would bring more for a 20 minute cameo at the death.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Cooler head?

Fuck me. It never ceases to amaze me how much people will just eat something up as a fact if the media say it enough.

Foley has unfortunately had very poor decision making and execution under pressure in 2016. What concerns me most is that when he makes a bad error (everybody makes them from time to time so he's no Robinson Crusoe) he seems to make the same error again in very quick succession.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but from my memory Foley has given more opposition tries directly of his kicks or passes than he has wallaby tries this test season.

I just don't know where that translates into a "cooler head". Perhaps compared to Donald Trump.

 

[Brumby Runner]

^^^^^^ From memory TWAS, one try in each of the first two England tests off charged down kicks, and then one or two off poorly directed passes intercepted by the opposition (Strauss as I recall) against SA.

We were all wondering too why Foley continued to take the clearing kicks after Hodge came into the side. That particular puzzle will need to be addressed tomorrow, or we'll likely see again a try or two to the ABs scored off charged down clearing kicks.

Plenty for Mick Byrne to work on and keep busy, just dealing with BF alone.

 

[KOB1987]

I saw an article yesterday where Cheika was saying that they still have ideas and combinations they want to try and that the 'big stage' is the place to try those. He was referring primarily to Hodge, but there were implications elsewhere, e.g. Timani, the lock pairing, Speight. Traditionally we tend to use our games v Argentina, Scotland, Samoa, etc to do this, nothing like the pressure cooker that is Eden Park to fully test it!

Despite all the criticism I genuinely believe that he is building towards a stable team structure similar to the ABs where there is almost no element of surprise when the team is announced, and also building some depth in the process. It's just that they haven't worked out what our best team is to settle on so are trying things out and introducing new blood. We are seeing this now predominantly with the locks, 12, and now our wingers.

I think the selection of Foley today is primarily because of the combination with Phipps. So for now while Genia is committed to Europe, when he's unavailable we will see the Phipps/Foley pairing, and when he's available we may see the Genia/Cooper pairing. By the time Genia returns from Europe next year he will have settled on the best combination IMO. We should also have a 12 locked in by then.

The Mumm v Fardy selection has been done to death and we all yearn for the young guy to put up his hand for the 6 jersey. I'm sure the radar will well and truly be on for Cheika during next year's Super Rugby comp for this specific spot, and if there is a smokie for the EOYT it won't surprise me at all if it's someone in this position. E.g. Dempsey or one of the young 'not quite big enough' locks.

Enough said, looking forward to the game now!

Purely because I'm patriotic, Wallabies by 2!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Cooper was playing better all round at test level than he ever had.
Foley is out of sorts.
Hodge has never played a test at 12.
So let's blood him at 12 outside the second best 10 at a ground at which we have our worst record.
Sink or swim for Hodge.
The only possible defence is Cooper does not go well at Eden Park.....but if that's the criteria he should have made 21 changes.

 

[gel]

I reiterate that I think Cheika is undoubtedly the best man for the job out of those who want it.

Doesn't mean I always agree or understand his selections.

Trying to justify or Rationalise the odd selections is just making it worse, guys.

 

[Gillys_ghost]

Come off it. It has been widely acknowledged both this site and beyond that Poey's been largely ineffective in 2016 and I think in terms of form Hooper's shown a lot more this season. Not only that, but Pocock's been out for ~4 weeks with a broken hand and was touch and go until this morning as to whether he'd be fit.

So yeah, coming off the bench isn't the worst option.

As for my opinions on the wider team - I'm happy to see Timani playing more of a traditional 8 role as I think the teams been lacking a bit of physicality in both offensive and defensive contact.

I'd be even happier to see Mumm fade into obscurity, but yet again hes been selected. I can kind of understand it as I don't think hes been as bad as people point him out to be, or as stats (E.g. missed tackles) infer that he has been. That being said, he's still been shite and I don't understand how his competitive advantage (the lineout) can get you selected for a national team.

Just imagine him standing next to Kaino. What an absolute embarrassment. I've seen more imposing players in the Betoota Dolphins u13 Bs.

Unfortunately, I don't see Fardy as a huge upgrade based on current form and given they're both thereabouts on lineout ability I really can't blame Cheika for selecting him. I just hope another Aussie 6 puts their hand up in Super Rugby next year (Higgers please fulfil your potential). Either that or Cheika should gamble on a rookie 6 thats shown a bit of something in the NRC this year. Figg or Dempsey would be my pick, with the former playing some absolutely unreal rugby throughout the tournament. Surely whatever Mumm can do he can do better.

I'm indifferent between Foley and Cooper at 10. I think Quade obviously offers more in terms of mixing up the point of attack and in terms of general team structure but I think Foley offers a bit more consistency and a bit more starch in defense (don't quote the stats I've seen them I don't think they reflect the entire story yadda yadda yadda). If Foley doesn't perform then theres no reason to not start Quade in the next game. Now or never Bernard.



.

You can ignore the stats all you want and i agree they dont paint the full picture but they do provide us with an objective basis to start from. And i think some stats do paint a full picture. Mumms involvement stats paint a very clear picture of someone who has a small work rate. His advantage line stats show he has little impact. His defensive stats demonstrate hes a poor defender. What part of those stats dont paint the full picture? The reasons for starting foley are "consistency" "combination with phipps" "cool headed" "goalkicking". All of those things are erroneous when Foley makes more errors then Quade, Measureably creates less opportunities then Quade, his goalkicking isnt measurably better, and his combination with Phipps has failed multiple times.which part of those stats dont paint the full picture? Is foley a better Playmaker then Quade despite a lot less try and linebteak assists? Is he a better defender despite missing more tackles and making less? I think Foley is a wonderful Runner, our best support player, a decent distributor and defender and what isnt measurable is his effort, toughness, and all those other personality traits. But there isnt any objective proof anyone can provide that make him a better option then Quade overall. If there is i would love to see it and will happily admit i was wrong. I am nota foley hater, i just see the facts which demonstrate Quade is better.

Other then that, good post. I agree about Sefa instead of Speight and regardless of who is at flyhalf or blindside im gonna be cheering for them.

 

[Train Without a Station]

KOB - again. Say something enough, people just eat it up,as truth.

Test the logic. When has the combination of Phipps and Foley ever been a success at test level? It was diabolical at times vs England (mostly the fault of Phipps).

All Foley's best tests have been with Genia.

So we've got an unsuccessful combination at test level and a 10 that's never played his best tests in that combination and apparently the logic is retaining both those players because of their combination?

Mumm and Fardy isn't worth discussing because a Cheika has shown that no matter how poor Mumm plays and how poor the line out he's picked to help performs, he'll be continually selected for the leadership he provides a team that appears devoid of any despite his presence.

Fucking spare me mate.

 

[KOB1987]

I reiterate that I think Cheika is undoubtedly the best man for the job out of those who want it.

Doesn't mean I always agree or understand his selections.

Trying to justify or Rationalise the odd selections is just making it worse, guys.

The thing is I don't think there really are any odd selections. Sure, you can make a strong case to pick Cooper over Foley. But it's not like he's chucked DHP in there or something, Foley played has played pretty much all of his super rugby there and was there for what could be regarded as a reasonably successful RWC Cup campaign. The jury is out and I'm reserving any criticism until after the game, it's the performance that I care about, not the selections.

As for the rest of the side, everyone is playing in their proper positions. In fact if you can nominate a suitable contender for 6 (in the meantime you have to bracket Mumm & Fardy), and you bracket Foley/Cooper , Hooper/Pocock and Speight/Naivalu then there's very little 'odd' about it at all. It's very close to the consensus side that everyone has been crying out for.

 

[KOB1987]

TWAS - again. I'm not advocating any particular selection. It's the performance (usually the result, but the performance in this instance) that I care about, not the selections.

I will critique the players after the game, not before it. I'm not a fortune teller.

And FWIW, I'm only think out loud as to one possible reason. As you point out there's no evidence of it being an overwhelming success at test level so it may not be that at all. It could be they've come up with some fancy move that's going to bust open the kiwi defences that they've been rehearsing all week and Cooper was shithouse at it and Foley took to it like a pig in mud. Who the fuck knows what the reason is, we weren't there. Point is there is a reason and maybe we'll find out what it is tonight, until then we are all just speculating.

 

[gel]

The thing is I don't think there really are any odd selections. Sure, you can make a strong case to pick Cooper over Foley. But it's not like he's chucked DHP in there or something, Foley played has played pretty much all of his super rugby there and was there for what could be regarded as a reasonably successful RWC Cup campaign. The jury is out and I'm reserving any criticism until after the game, it's the performance that I care about, not the selections.

As for the rest of the side, everyone is playing in their proper positions. In fact if you can nominate a suitable contender for 6 (in the meantime you have to bracket Mumm & Fardy), and you bracket Foley/Cooper , Hooper/Pocock and Speight/Naivalu then there's very little 'odd' about it at all. It's very close to the consensus side that everyone has been crying out for.

Everyone?

 

[chasmac]

Cooper was playing better all round at test level than he ever had.
Foley is out of sorts.
Hodge has never played a test at 12.
So let's blood him at 12 outside the second best 10 at a ground at which we have our worst record.
Sink or swim for Hodge.
The only possible defence is Cooper does not go well at Eden Park...but if that's the criteria he should have made 21 changes.

I see it differently:
Hodge is the future and therefore needs as much support as you can give to a player debuting at 12.
There has never been a player thrive at 12 outside Cooper, he is too unpredictable.
Foley brought out the best in KB (Kurtley Beale) and was good with Giteau (our last two #12s that were any good).
Also we have seen Folau at his best when Foley is on the paddock.


Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

 

[Train Without a Station]

You're right Chas.

Except for To'omua, Fainga'a, Tapuai, Barnes, Kerevi and all the others who thrived outside Cooper at various levels.

Outside Beale, what player has ever thrived at 12 outside Foley?

 

[Gillys_ghost]

I see it differently:
Hodge is the future and therefore needs as much support as you can give to a player debuting at 12.
There has never been a player thrive at 12 outside Cooper, he is too unpredictable.
Foley brought out the best in KB (Kurtley Beale) and was good with Giteau (our last two #12s that were any good).
Also we have seen Folau at his best when Foley is on the paddock.


Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

I think a very strong arguement could be made that Beale and Giteau brought the best out of Foley. And are you forgetting How good the Cooper/To'omua combo was, or how good Anthony Fainga'a looked outside Quade despite his huge limitations. You really are pretty far off the mark on that one.

 

[Viking]

Cooler head?

Fuck me. It never ceases to amaze me how much people will just eat something up as a fact if the media say it enough.

Foley has unfortunately had very poor decision making and execution under pressure in 2016. What concerns me most is that when he makes a bad error (everybody makes them from time to time so he's no Robinson Crusoe) he seems to make the same error again in very quick succession.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but from my memory Foley has given more opposition tries directly of his kicks or passes than he has wallaby tries this test season.

I just don't know where that translates into a "cooler head". Perhaps compared to Donald Trump.

He kicked a couple goals under pressure. I think that has been the source of the theory. In terms of general play I definitely wouldn't call him a cool head. He is very error prone and certainly not great under pressure.

But give credit where credit is due, pressure doesn't seem to affect his goal-kicking. it's average under pressure and average with pressure.

 

[KOB1987]

Everyone?

Nice selective quoting. I said the 'consensus side that everyone has being crying out for'. A consensus in this instance would be the most picked from everyone on here who has voiced their opinion, not everyone in the world. And note that I said 'close to', not exactly. To make it the precise consensus side would probably have Fardy at #6 and some mythical being at #8. Otherwise pretty much the consensus choices for 1-15 are in the match day 23 and in the right positions.

EDIT: and Slipper but I think it's reasonable to assume there is something up with him, most likely to do with his shoulder reco.

 

[zer0]

Phil Kearns has mocked Eden Park and those who live in its surrounding suburbs in a video sure to enrage Kiwis ahead of Saturday’s Bledisloe Cup match.

The former Wallabies captain cannot comprehend how Australia has not managed to beat the All Blacks at this venue in 30 years, saying in a Fox Sports promotional video he could find no logical explanation.

“Eden Park is not the highest socio-economic area of Auckland,” Kearns says.

“And underline that by adding that there’s absolutely nothing special about this place.

“It’s no Garden of Eden, it’s not like you’re walking into Kings Park, Durban, or into Twickenham, no imposing structure or seating or aura — absoluetly nothing to write home about.”

Kearns, a long-time Kiwi agitator, will be commentating on the match in Auckland for Fox Sports on Saturday and can expect a few barbs.

But he proudly reveals that each time he has to travel to New Zealand for work, he catches the latest possible flight there and the first flight back home to spend as little time in the country as possible.

The Wallabies will not only be out to snap their 30-year losing streak to New Zealand at Eden Park, but they will also be looking to end the All Blacks’ hopes of a record-breaking 18th consecutive Test win.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/f...t/news-story/4d5eddc15857fe1fb322bd66c8baf802

The related video is not available outside of Australia, and is not on YouTube. Seems Fox have (sort of) learned their lesson from the England series.