New Zealand v Australia - Auckland - 23 August 2014

[Braveheart81]

Why not? Australia won't win until there are players harder and more effective at the breakdown - from props to locks to flankers. I'd prefer someone like Pocock to Hooper.

Look where most turnovers are won in the game today. It's from dominant tackles and players getting isolated. Even players who arrive first to the ball are only successful if there is a really ineffective cleanout.

Games where players are given the leeway to compete at the breakdown like Pocock in the 2011 RWC quarter final are almost non-existant now.

As others have said, Hooper topped test rugby in 2013 for pilfers won. He's not as good as Pocock at it but he is good.

It seems ridiculous to look at a game where we got flogged and pick out one of our two best forwards and say he needs to be better at the breakdown. You don't win many turnovers when you're standing in the in goal lamenting the try your team just gave away.

 

[tragic]

View attachment 5274

 

[Pfitzy]

Oh yes PLEEEEEEZE let's bring Giteau back. He was such a wunderkind and never did anything bad on a rugby field like run sideways and get picked off or transfer pressure.

Give me fucking strength.

Please, while I like Paul Cully's style, what he's proposing is complete fucking madness given the circumstances under which the Giteaus, Mitchells, and JOCs operated under in France i.e. a fucking armchair ride from their pack.

People are happy to rush in and say "well Super Rugby isn't Test Rugby", but just because an expat is running amok in a competition diluted with foreign castaways and old men, they're suddenly world beaters?

And how many forwards did Cully name in his article? An integer less than fucking 1 before you go looking.

Those operating under such a belief - that foreign players should be considered - should perhaps spend their limited brain power getting behind the NRC so that our best forwards can beat the shit out of each other and push for higher honours.

That way, we're not relying on a few dominant kids at school level hoovering up all the contracts available to Super Rugby teams when they're just flat track bullies.

 

[Ash]

I don't remember there being any 50+ beatings when Robbie Deans was coach either.

It doesn't really mean much.

If Carter had brought has kicking boots in 2010, there would have been!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Tri_Nations_Series#New_Zealand_vs_Australia.2C_Christchurch

But your point is good.

 

[Slim 293]

I'd like Stephen Larkham to be playing 10 and Tim Horan to be playing 12. Whilst we're at it can we get John Eales and Rod McCall to play lock?

I'll take Giffen over McCall, with a backrow of Willie O, George Smith and Kefu............

Edit: That leaves us a little short in the lineout, so maybe Finegan instead of Willie O or Kefu..........

 

[Spewn]

Look where most turnovers are won in the game today. It's from dominant tackles and players getting isolated. Even players who arrive first to the ball are only successful if there is a really ineffective cleanout.

Games where players are given the leeway to compete at the breakdown like Pocock in the 2011 RWC quarter final are almost non-existant now.

As others have said, Hooper topped test rugby in 2013 for pilfers won. He's not as good as Pocock at it but he is good.

It seems ridiculous to look at a game where we got flogged and pick out one of our two best forwards and say he needs to be better at the breakdown. You don't win many turnovers when you're standing in the in goal lamenting the try your team just gave away.

He does need to be better at this aspect of the game. It is a key part of winning rugby. That is, one more way of getting possession. As I also said, he gives everything else on the field. And the same could not be said for most of the others. What is ridiculous is suggesting he is immune from comment. He was still part of a pack that was dominated.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

If Douglas was in the squad there's a chance he'd get a look in against South Africa.

As it stands though, Carter and Simmons were fairly selected for the first Bledisloe and based on that they would have been selected for the second Bledisloe.

You can regret your selection decision in hindsight, but you can't change it!

At last we disagree: Carter was an accident waiting to happen in the first Bledisloe. His body height was very very poor. he wasn't punished for it.
He seemed to find another vulnerability on Saturday.
I would have dropped him after Bledisloe 1 and my posts at the time show I'm not indulging in hindsight.

 

[Pfitzy]

So, given Pocock is available for selection, where do we put him next week? Straight back in at 7 or run off the bench for Hooper on 55 minutes?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

So, given Pocock is available for selection, where do we put him next week? Straight back in at 7 or run off the bench for Hooper on 55 minutes?

dont confuse me

 

[Pfitzy]

At last we disagree: Carter was an accident waiting to happen in the first Bledisloe. His body height was very very poor. he wasn't punished for it.

So was White. His passing was blamed on the wet weather. Now there is nowhere to hide.

 

[Train Without a Station]

He does need to be better at this aspect of the game. It is a key part of winning rugby. That is, one more way of getting possession. As I also said, he gives everything else on the field. And the same could not be said for most of the others. What is ridiculous is suggesting he is immune from comment. He was still part of a pack that was dominated.

To answer my previous rhetorical question, pocock didn't do very well and there were murmurings asking if Pocock was past it. Were they true? No. It's just referees were leaning towards attacking rugby and favoured teams with the ball. This meant the pilferers effectiveness diminished.

I'm not claiming hooper is the greatest breakdown ever, but to say he has to improve is a big call. He did significantly more than any other test player in 2013 and was the second highest for Super Rugby in 2014.

That's tells me that whatever Hooper is managing to steal must be good, because nobody else is managing any more.

If Hooper needs to improve, what does that say about the 9 other tier 1 opensides and 13 other super rugby opensides? If he's close to the best in the world, which the statistics come close to suggesting, how is he not doing his share of it?

 

[Richo]

That's complete crap to paint it as some form of complacency from the Wallabies. One team has something like a 90% winning record over the other which had stretched to something like 5 tests. How is it a difference in mentality between Australia and New Zealand that the team which is far ahead is disappointed to draw with a team which has a poor record against them, and a team with a poor record against an opponent feeling somewhat heartened by their closing of the gap?
If we'd been spanking the All Blacks with regularity for more than a decade I guarantee they'd be positive about a draw as it feels like they're getting closer to where they need to be also.

That's one interpretation, Payten's is another (and one that's based on spending time around the team). IMO, there is clearly a difference between the two sides in the top two inches (as well as all the other ones). Whether the name for it is 'complacency' or not is of course debatable.

 

[Spewn]

So, given Pocock is available for selection, where do we put him next week? Straight back in at 7 or run off the bench for Hooper on 55 minutes?

With no games under his belt? Pocock wouldn't be in the squad. If you are talking about next season with both fit and both playing well - Pocock every time.

 

[I like to watch]

So, given Pocock is available for selection, where do we put him next week? Straight back in at 7 or run off the bench for Hooper on 55 minutes?

2

 

[Quick Hands]

Without wishing to criticise David Pocock, the poor bloke hasn't played a full season since 2012 and isn't likely to be back until 2015. I certainly hope he comes back bigger and better than ever, but after a break from top level sport for that long, coming back at the same level that you were at isn't as easy as it sounds. This isn't meant as being critical of his play or saying that he can't come back, it's just an note of caution.

 

[Train Without a Station]

That's one interpretation, Payten's is another (and one that's based on spending time around the team). IMO, there is clearly a difference between the two sides in the top two inches (as well as all the other ones). Whether the name for it is 'complacency' or not is of course debatable.

IMO it's fucking kicking the poor blokes when they're down.

Of course the team well ahead is going to look at a draw as a loss, and the team we behind look at it as a partial victory. To say it's a lack of drive and mental fortitude from the wallabies is poor form.

 

[cyclopath]

I've never seen such shit-canning of a player as Hooper cops from a small few - regarded widely in the rugby press, by opposing fans and most other rugby pundits, scoring highly on many metrics, rated by his peers in Aus rugby (John Eales medal) yet apparently only there until Pocock comes back, or Gill finds form or whatever.
It beggars belief.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Without wishing to criticise David Pocock, the poor bloke hasn't played a full season since 2012 and isn't likely to be back until 2015. I certainly hope he comes back bigger and better than ever, but after a break from top level sport for that long, coming back at the same level that you were at isn't as easy as it sounds. This isn't meant as being critical of his play or saying that he can't come back, it's just an note of caution.

Absolutely. All those people bemoaning the fact that we don't have Pocock need to accept that he's not and won't be anywhere near the Wallabies in the foreseeable future. Hooper is the best we have, end of story. He's been among our best this year in nearly every game and his overall contribution to the team has been immense. I for one am more than happy for him to stay in the 7 jersey until someone else steps up and takes it away from him. He needs some mates though. It would really help if a few of the tight forwards could step up and help him.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I've never seen such shit-canning of a player as Hooper cops from a small few - regarded widely in the rugby press, by opposing fans and most other rugby pundits, scoring highly on many metrics, rated by his peers in Aus rugby (John Eales medal) yet apparently only there until Pocock comes back, or Gill finds form or whatever.
It beggars belief.

Dead right. I just cannot believe how hard to please some people are when it comes to Hooper. Most scribes had him in the world XV last year at seven and apparently that's still not good enough. I guess it could be as a result of us having a production line of great fetchers over the last 20-30 years and Hoops not quite being in the same mould, but bugger me I don't know what else the guy could do at this stage. He's our best forward by a bloody mile.

 

[Quick Hands]

I've never seen such shit-canning of a player as Hooper cops from a small few - regarded widely in the rugby press, by opposing fans and most other rugby pundits, scoring highly on many metrics, rated by his peers in Aus rugby (John Eales medal) yet apparently only there until Pocock comes back, or Gill finds form or whatever.
It beggars belief.

Sadly, much of the criticism comes from province based parochial sources.