Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
Fuck a bye. We had to wait till round 3 for a Super Game, I'd not be a happy choppy waiting for NRC round 2.
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National Rugby Championship 2014
- Thread starter kiap
- Start date
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MACCA
Ron Walden (29)
Hello MACCA, I had to scroll back months to find your last NRC post, a friendly wonder what I could ask?[/quote]
Hi DB - hope the NSW Country Eagles go better than the Wicks today.
There were a few that went OK though.
The Rays seem so much better organised with talk of coaching structure etc etc
There is not much evidence of the Eagles being very ready.
NationalRugbyChamps
Stan Wickham (3)
Starting the season in the potential growth areas is key in my book. Perth Melbourne GC/Toowoomba, Western Sydney should all get a game for the opener games. Will have to see.
Anyway, what's the story with massive stadiums hosting games that will be mostly empty? Surely it will cost more and the atmosphere a bit dead?
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
Only my thoughts;
I read;
Include the exodus over seas, how many of them have been raised through a Shute Shield club - my thought / point here, the Shute Shield nursery is supplying internationally and NSW have 4 NRC teams to field.
So I propose instead us, and more directly the Force & Rebels looking overseas and to the Shute Shield lets really use the NRC to develop players from with the respective grass roots. That will involve hard work, and it will ruffle some feathers, but with work comes reward.
So Melborne Rising and Perth Spirit lets see some of your local talent from your grass roots > Dewar & the Premier comps in the NRC, as we need them to develop and grow depth in Australia
I read;
- Last week there was 12 players from a Shute Shield club in the Wallabies
- This week there are 11.
Include the exodus over seas, how many of them have been raised through a Shute Shield club - my thought / point here, the Shute Shield nursery is supplying internationally and NSW have 4 NRC teams to field.
So I propose instead us, and more directly the Force & Rebels looking overseas and to the Shute Shield lets really use the NRC to develop players from with the respective grass roots. That will involve hard work, and it will ruffle some feathers, but with work comes reward.
So Melborne Rising and Perth Spirit lets see some of your local talent from your grass roots > Dewar & the Premier comps in the NRC, as we need them to develop and grow depth in Australia
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Dave,
That's a deliberating misleading statistic that they have used though.
Is Kurtley Beale counted as coming through Joeys or whatever SS Club?
What about Luke Jones? Do we consider him a St Pius boy? Or a Manly boy? Not sure how much of his development Manly can claim when he played Aus Schoolboys and was signed straight out of school. Whilst I'm not knocking your club, he had likely played 1 year of colts when he was signed.
The point I am making though, is that these comps (Dewar shield and whatever they call the WA equivalent over in Perthfontain) ability to develop young talent is tied to the schoolboy rugby system.
In Sydney and Brisbane this is a different scenario as schoolboy athletes are still quite interchangeable between RL and RU, so kids who have played RL at club level can play RU at school level. This crossover doesn't occur both due to different body types and also the overwhelming popularity of AFL. I'm not certain any school in Melbourne even offers RU, without offering AFL. I imagine Perth would be close to this also.
Though from what I have heard, the Rebels have no intention of recruiting SS players specifically to play Rising without a full or EPS contract as a Super Rugby player.
That being said, if I was the 5th best in any position in Sydney, was young with no commitments, and saw a position the Rebels would be short on come NRC, I know what I would be doing - Moving down to give it a crack.
That's a deliberating misleading statistic that they have used though.
Is Kurtley Beale counted as coming through Joeys or whatever SS Club?
What about Luke Jones? Do we consider him a St Pius boy? Or a Manly boy? Not sure how much of his development Manly can claim when he played Aus Schoolboys and was signed straight out of school. Whilst I'm not knocking your club, he had likely played 1 year of colts when he was signed.
The point I am making though, is that these comps (Dewar shield and whatever they call the WA equivalent over in Perthfontain) ability to develop young talent is tied to the schoolboy rugby system.
In Sydney and Brisbane this is a different scenario as schoolboy athletes are still quite interchangeable between RL and RU, so kids who have played RL at club level can play RU at school level. This crossover doesn't occur both due to different body types and also the overwhelming popularity of AFL. I'm not certain any school in Melbourne even offers RU, without offering AFL. I imagine Perth would be close to this also.
Though from what I have heard, the Rebels have no intention of recruiting SS players specifically to play Rising without a full or EPS contract as a Super Rugby player.
That being said, if I was the 5th best in any position in Sydney, was young with no commitments, and saw a position the Rebels would be short on come NRC, I know what I would be doing - Moving down to give it a crack.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
No way not miss-leading;
- The first "club" Kurtley Beale was tied to was either Randwick or Norths played at both cant recall which one first.
- The first "club" Luke Jones was tied to was Uni colts - but a beaches boy.
What I am saying I'd like to see is the VIC & WA comps doing some work in with their comps and schools so rugby picks up players similar to the examples you've used and not other codes or countries, it will also show the young players they have a chance, and a path to follow.
This NRC is about developing rugby in Australia, not spreading NSW & QLD talent around Australia.
I am only say this because development will benefit everyone.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Dave, it is misleading because it implies their development was due to the SS system when in those two cases for example, the bulk of their development was in the schoolboy system of the professional system as they started straight from school.
SS has an important role to play in the development of players because not every (or rather, almost none of them in fact) players are signed straight out of school. It provides a pathway for them to bridge the gap from schoolboy rugby and professional rugby. It also provides a pathway for those who didn't go to a rugby school.
The point of my last comment though is that you can only do so much. It's all well and good to sit in a Rugby code dominated region and say the other competitions have to do more. The problem is that in these regions there essentially is no competition for schoolboy rugby. Subsequently, the majority of the best talents play.
In Victoria, there is massive competition for schoolboy rugby and it is rare that potentially talented AFL players will play it instead. I do know of one. But you have to consider for example, if Karmichael Hunt went to St Kevins College in Victoria rather than Churchie in Brisbane, as an athlete that played both sports, he would likely have ended up in the 1st XVIII, rather than the 1st XV.
You can do all the work with schools that you like, but when you are in the heartland of AFL, you will struggle to get the top athletes to ignore AFL, with more professional opportunity, and play rugby instead. In order for this to happen, support (Through the Wallabies, Rebels and now the Rising) needs to be built at the top end too through greater entertainment and performances, in order to help grow the bottom end. With no top end presence, bottom end support will not grow beyond the ex-pat and PI community.
SS has an important role to play in the development of players because not every (or rather, almost none of them in fact) players are signed straight out of school. It provides a pathway for them to bridge the gap from schoolboy rugby and professional rugby. It also provides a pathway for those who didn't go to a rugby school.
The point of my last comment though is that you can only do so much. It's all well and good to sit in a Rugby code dominated region and say the other competitions have to do more. The problem is that in these regions there essentially is no competition for schoolboy rugby. Subsequently, the majority of the best talents play.
In Victoria, there is massive competition for schoolboy rugby and it is rare that potentially talented AFL players will play it instead. I do know of one. But you have to consider for example, if Karmichael Hunt went to St Kevins College in Victoria rather than Churchie in Brisbane, as an athlete that played both sports, he would likely have ended up in the 1st XVIII, rather than the 1st XV.
You can do all the work with schools that you like, but when you are in the heartland of AFL, you will struggle to get the top athletes to ignore AFL, with more professional opportunity, and play rugby instead. In order for this to happen, support (Through the Wallabies, Rebels and now the Rising) needs to be built at the top end too through greater entertainment and performances, in order to help grow the bottom end. With no top end presence, bottom end support will not grow beyond the ex-pat and PI community.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
Train it is basic.
- Yes NSW dominate at school, and Shute - that's why we have 4 teams.
- Whether it be Natural Talent / School / or Shute both QLD & NSW dominate rugby on a per capita basis.
The concern i see is here - and we possibly agree with that as well.
Whether it be a business, or a building it is usually built up, not down, if the foundations aren't strong or it is to top heavy it will collapse.
With the Wallabies and Rebels now in place - there is a needle pointing in a direction for rugby, the U19s, U20's, U21's and the local comp need to see they have a game of rugby to play otherwise VIC will always struggle to get them on the boat.
Lastly on that - I'm pretty sure all tragics on here want to see Australian rugby being a powerhouse with great depth, with that more players will play.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
In my view, and based on the attempts at expansion I have witnessed, that isn't going to be successful.
The NRL have made minimal efforts at both ends in Melbourne and unsurprisingly they have made almost no growth since 1998.
Much the same with the Gold Coast Titans. Since 2007 the only change has been the decline in their attendance.
The AFL have already done what we are trying to do now, with first the Sydney Swans, secondly the Brisbane Bears/Lions and now the Gold Coast Suns and GWS Giants.
The chose not to do much with the Swans, though Eccelstein invested heavily and saw initial promise before dropping off. They chose not to do much for the Bears and they struggled for years.
The introduction of equalization measures and COLA to assist in retaining draft talent helped this.
The spread and movement of talent is natural and should be encouraged. That is professionalism. Implementing measures to prevent expansion teams from having to pay more to entice second choice talent should be encouraged for this reason. It's no benefit for the players to be warehoused and no benefit for expansion teams to struggle.
But I digress. The AFL's assistance initially to the Brisbane Lions to create success, in addition to their development work in Auskick broadened the AFL's appeal. The Auskick initiative gave kids an outlet in AFL and a chance to enjoy the sport. But where did there interest in it originally come from? Barring expat Melbourne parents, it was from seeing a successful local team. By supporting the top end, they were able to build interest to expand the very bottom end. From this it has seen the increase in the number of teams in SEQ as these Auskick players graduate to junior AFL and then senior AFL.
The important thing is though that there needed to be something to get their interest, and somewhere for them to express that interest.
As long as the Rebels and Rising remain shit (and they will if they are left to rely only on their local talent where it is at now) - no kid is going to be interested in rugby over AFL.
And unlike in Sydney, there will be no opportunity to offer sporting scholarships to juniors from another similar code, who then over years of senior education decide they enjoy rugby or alternatively kids who play another similar code and find their school only offers the slightly different code so they play it and become Rugby people.
The NRL have made minimal efforts at both ends in Melbourne and unsurprisingly they have made almost no growth since 1998.
Much the same with the Gold Coast Titans. Since 2007 the only change has been the decline in their attendance.
The AFL have already done what we are trying to do now, with first the Sydney Swans, secondly the Brisbane Bears/Lions and now the Gold Coast Suns and GWS Giants.
The chose not to do much with the Swans, though Eccelstein invested heavily and saw initial promise before dropping off. They chose not to do much for the Bears and they struggled for years.
The introduction of equalization measures and COLA to assist in retaining draft talent helped this.
The spread and movement of talent is natural and should be encouraged. That is professionalism. Implementing measures to prevent expansion teams from having to pay more to entice second choice talent should be encouraged for this reason. It's no benefit for the players to be warehoused and no benefit for expansion teams to struggle.
But I digress. The AFL's assistance initially to the Brisbane Lions to create success, in addition to their development work in Auskick broadened the AFL's appeal. The Auskick initiative gave kids an outlet in AFL and a chance to enjoy the sport. But where did there interest in it originally come from? Barring expat Melbourne parents, it was from seeing a successful local team. By supporting the top end, they were able to build interest to expand the very bottom end. From this it has seen the increase in the number of teams in SEQ as these Auskick players graduate to junior AFL and then senior AFL.
The important thing is though that there needed to be something to get their interest, and somewhere for them to express that interest.
As long as the Rebels and Rising remain shit (and they will if they are left to rely only on their local talent where it is at now) - no kid is going to be interested in rugby over AFL.
And unlike in Sydney, there will be no opportunity to offer sporting scholarships to juniors from another similar code, who then over years of senior education decide they enjoy rugby or alternatively kids who play another similar code and find their school only offers the slightly different code so they play it and become Rugby people.
Melbourne Terrace
Darby Loudon (17)
The problem with relying on Vic schools and clubs to produce talent is the end product is never good enough, particularly with VSRU schools (that aren't St Kevins). A lot of kids who play through their schools have only limited exposure to the game and most of that is through some random teacher for 2-4 hours a week rather than with proper coaches. If Rebels are ever going to churn out a consistent line of talent it'll be by identifying talent early enough to lock them into a academy style development plan and building them through their major development years.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
I understand everything you and train are saying, all I'm saying is Melb is the sporting capital of Australia, there must be a wealth of talent down there and work needs to be down so they become aware of rugby, and see rugby as sport that is going some ware.
Whilst the school kids think, oh we'll never make it because someone from Sydney, Bris, or overseas will be brought in - will it ever get much traction. I don't think so as the Gifted And Talented (GAT) will stay in AFL.
There my views, anyway an idea that will assist develop rugby; and a true Melb team is if an U20 team was also included in the comp. This would capture the 18, 19, and 20 years olds in the lost world and give them a real shot at showing there wears.
I'll post the same question in the Rebels thread.
Rebels post that their players are employed staff so their staff will play in the local comp - that's just what employers do. Rugby is now professional.
So with the ARU providing funding to the Rebels, what measurable business plan points / targets have the Rebels provided the ARU with regards to development in rugby and are they being achieved?
Have an increase of schools playing rugby within the first 5 years.
Have #?# players in the Australian School boys within the first 5 years.
Have #?# locally raised Dewar players playing in the NRC starting team and increase that.
So is there a professional business plan in place that demonstrates growth of the Rebels business?
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
The Rebels actually do a lot of work at what they call "Pathway" level what ever that is.
I think you'll find it's not the view that other talent will be brought in. Especially now it's a big thing for the Rebels to develop their home grown talent as they do not have a home grown Super Rugby player.
Due to this players who are not at the level but have potential are getting concessions. Moli Sooaemalelagi and Brenden Westney are two examples of this. Both probably too young to be close to Super Rugby standard yet have been either contracted, or being paid to train with the squad on a supplementary contract since last year.
Dave you've got to understand that to a guy who wants to make a crack of it, AFL and superior development due to economies of scale is everywhere. There is 18 potential teams to make it in and it's a game that favours youth.
Rugby has 5 teams right now, rarely players are signed straight out of school and even then, are they even sure they will make it. A bloke can make very good money playing VFL, SANFL and WAFL whilst also having a great network for job opportunities. A bloke can maybe get a job as a scaffolder playing rugby in Victoria.
You can't just sit their and say the NSWRU are just doing it better when they don't have this to deal with. NRL is a threat, but at the same time, players who want to make NRL don't need to disregard RU. Both are still very entwined at schoolboy level. You have the threat of 16 clubs hovering, but the fact that the players don't need to focus on one or the other at 15 keeps them developing in the game.
I think you'll find it's not the view that other talent will be brought in. Especially now it's a big thing for the Rebels to develop their home grown talent as they do not have a home grown Super Rugby player.
Due to this players who are not at the level but have potential are getting concessions. Moli Sooaemalelagi and Brenden Westney are two examples of this. Both probably too young to be close to Super Rugby standard yet have been either contracted, or being paid to train with the squad on a supplementary contract since last year.
Dave you've got to understand that to a guy who wants to make a crack of it, AFL and superior development due to economies of scale is everywhere. There is 18 potential teams to make it in and it's a game that favours youth.
Rugby has 5 teams right now, rarely players are signed straight out of school and even then, are they even sure they will make it. A bloke can make very good money playing VFL, SANFL and WAFL whilst also having a great network for job opportunities. A bloke can maybe get a job as a scaffolder playing rugby in Victoria.
You can't just sit their and say the NSWRU are just doing it better when they don't have this to deal with. NRL is a threat, but at the same time, players who want to make NRL don't need to disregard RU. Both are still very entwined at schoolboy level. You have the threat of 16 clubs hovering, but the fact that the players don't need to focus on one or the other at 15 keeps them developing in the game.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
I think all states need to do it better, not once have i said NSWRU are doing it better - the decline in junior rugby thread has some great ideas.
IMO - the ARU needs to ensure each state be responsible for certain KPI's that simple.
I have no idea how its run in VIC and appreciate your commentary.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Yeah in all fairness you haven't claimed they did anything great, probably contrary to that haha. More so just tyring to reiterate the obstacles that Vic Rugby has to deal with.
That's why in order to get any traction, whilst they need to do work at the bottom end, they need a positive presence at the top end. Local talent get pumped on a weekly balance won't do anything to attract more talent at the bottom end, which is needed to develop home ground talent.
Bit of a "Catch 22" if you're a fan of Joseph Heller at all.
That's why in order to get any traction, whilst they need to do work at the bottom end, they need a positive presence at the top end. Local talent get pumped on a weekly balance won't do anything to attract more talent at the bottom end, which is needed to develop home ground talent.
Bit of a "Catch 22" if you're a fan of Joseph Heller at all.
Are they playing Baseball? Thought it would have been the Perth Spirit in the Bumble Bee jersey.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
Cheers, ah yes back in the day when baseball tried taking off - thanks for the pick up.
I'm just happy that someone has some information about the competition. It would be great if the ARU could publish the entire draw. Maybe they are waiting until after the Test series?
Also it's great that I could use some of the useless information in my head for something.
Also it's great that I could use some of the useless information in my head for something.
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