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My Wallaby 22

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RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Re: My Wallaby 22

Scotty said:
I was thinking that there is a possibility of Cooper getting picked. Not on form obviously.

yep, Deans enjoys project players and I think he will back himself (and Richard Graham I guess) to make big improvements in both Cooper and Tahu. Better to have them training under that environment than playing club football (although I expect they will play club footy as well).
 
S

Spook

Guest
Re: My Wallaby 22

FB: James O'Connor & Drew Mitchell
Wing: Lachie Turner, Lote Tuqiri, Adam Ashley-Cooper, Cummins
Centre: Stirling Mortlock, Timana Tahu & Berrick Barnes
Flyhalves: Matt Giteau & Quade Cooper
Scrumhalves: Josh Valentine & Luke Burgess
No 8: Wycliffe Palu & Richard Brown.
Flankers: George Smith, David Pocock, Salvi, Mowen
Locks: Dean Mumm, Will Caldwell, Peter Kimlin, James Horwill
THPs: Al Baxter, Guy Shepherdson
LHPs: Benn Robinson & Ben Alexander
Hookers: Stephen Moore & Tatafu Polata-Nau, Edmonds/Freir/Hardman

Smokies: Lealiifano or To'omua over Cooper :eek:
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Re: My Wallaby 22

Here's the democratic squad from the front page

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ggrs-democratic-wallabies-22

A few points of interest;

# Sianara Japan, James O?Connor makes the 15, ahead of Drew Mitchell
# Big Cliffy still has it over the lighter weight Richard Brown
# David Pocock has taken Phil Waugh?s bench spot
# Ben Alexander needs to work on his tight head scrummaging, as he?s on the bench covering both sides !
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Re: Stuff it I'm going early My Wallaby 22

The talent pool is pretty good at the moment, barring a couple of positions. There are some really good young players coming through too. I agree that the u20s are better to be playing in the u20s comp.

My preferred team:

15 Lachlan Turner
14 Drew Mitchell
13 Stirling Mortlock
12 Berrick Barnes
11 Cameron Shepherd
10 Matt Giteau
9 Luke Burgess
8 Wycliffe Palu
7 Phil Waugh
6 Dean Mumm
5 James Horwill
4 Nathan Sharpe
3 Al Baxter
2 Tatafu Polata-Nau
1 Benn Robinson

16 Stephen Moore
17 Ben Alexander
18 Richard Brown
19 David Pocock
20 Brett Sheehan
21 Ryan Cross
22 Peter Hynes


A few notes:

The wings and fullback are pretty interchangable - they often have to switch within a match situation, and they should ideally have similar skills.

As a general rule, in a match situation I would only replace backs due to injury (with half backs being the only exception).

Phil Waugh has been brilliant this season - if Robbie Deans omits him from the team he must be a kiwi saboteur.

Although Palu is injured at the moment, he should be fit for the important matches (Tri nations - Bledisloe Cup especially)

Nathan Sharpe has played well this season, and he was immense in last year's northern hemisphere tests (I was surprised, but credit where it is due - he came back from being dropped very well indeed)



A couple of omissions:

Adam Ashley-Cooper: OK for S14. But repeatedly shown up in internationals.

Lote Tiqiri: totally over rated. Not fast enough. Poor ball handling skills. Kicking very average.

George Smith: this once great open side flanker has given up rucking, mauling and stealing/retaining possession. He now plays like a mediocre centre - slow, poor kickng, terrible passing (good skills for a forward, but not good enough for someone playing in the centres)


Would be in the 22 if he wasn't injured:

Digby Ione (replacing Ryan Cross)
Mark Gerard (replacing Peter Hynes)
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Noddy said:
Scotty said:
I was thinking that there is a possibility of Cooper getting picked. Not on form obviously.

yep, Deans enjoys project players and I think he will back himself (and Richard Graham I guess) to make big improvements in both Cooper and Tahu. Better to have them training under that environment than playing club football (although I expect they will play club footy as well).


Deans obviously thinks he is legend if he thinks he can improve Quade Cooper sufficiently for a Wallaby place.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Re: My Wallaby 22

Langthorne said:
Noddy said:
Scotty said:
I was thinking that there is a possibility of Cooper getting picked. Not on form obviously.

yep, Deans enjoys project players and I think he will back himself (and Richard Graham I guess) to make big improvements in both Cooper and Tahu. Better to have them training under that environment than playing club football (although I expect they will play club footy as well).


Deans obviously thinks he is legend if he thinks he can improve Quade Cooper sufficiently for a Wallaby place.

he did it last year.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Re: My Wallaby 22

Welcome aboard LT ;)

It's a pretty good side you've picked but slamming Smith is odd. We might need some video evidence (mins:sec) where Smith is bludging in the centres. We have a bloke on here called naza who can't be pursuaded that Rocky Elsom is any good. Smith didn't pinch a girlfriend off you or anything?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Adam Ashley-Cooper: OK for S14. But repeatedly shown up in internationals.

Lote Tiqiri: totally over rated. Not fast enough. Poor ball handling skills. Kicking very average.

George Smith: this once great open side flanker has given up rucking, mauling and stealing/retaining possession. He now plays like a mediocre centre - slow, poor kickng, terrible passing (good skills for a forward, but not good enough for someone playing in the centres)

Something funny is going on here. I agree with Tuqiri to an extent, but say that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has been shown up in internationals only applies to when he is played out of position at fullback, and indicating Smith has lost it is going way too far!
 

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
Re: My Wallaby 22

A couple of omissions:

Adam Ashley-Cooper: OK for S14. But repeatedly shown up in internationals.

Lote Tiqiri: totally over rated. Not fast enough. Poor ball handling skills. Kicking very average.

George Smith: this once great open side flanker has given up rucking, mauling and stealing/retaining possession. He now plays like a mediocre centre - slow, poor kickng, terrible passing (good skills for a forward, but not good enough for someone playing in the centres)

Langthorne,
I totally agree with you on Lote Tuqiri but I think the complete opposite of the other two, I think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) usually plays his best against the AB's & George Smith is still the king & if anyone is going to take his crown it's Pocock not Waugh.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Re: My Wallaby 22

disco said:
A couple of omissions:

Adam Ashley-Cooper: OK for S14. But repeatedly shown up in internationals.

Lote Tiqiri: totally over rated. Not fast enough. Poor ball handling skills. Kicking very average.

George Smith: this once great open side flanker has given up rucking, mauling and stealing/retaining possession. He now plays like a mediocre centre - slow, poor kickng, terrible passing (good skills for a forward, but not good enough for someone playing in the centres)

Langthorne,
I totally agree with you on Lote Tuqiri but I think the complete opposite of the other two, I think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) usually plays his best against the AB's & George Smith is still the king & if anyone is going to take his crown it's Pocock not Waugh.

Yes, welcome aboard Langthorne. You started well, but Waugh is no match for Smith. Ask the Kiwis and Saffers who they would prefer we picked.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Re: Stuff it I'm going early My Wallaby 22

Langthorne said:
11 Cameron Shepherd

Welcome aboard !

Shep is injured and out for 2-3 months is he not ?

Langthorne said:
George Smith: this once great open side flanker has given up rucking, mauling and stealing/retaining possession. He now plays like a mediocre centre - slow, poor kickng, terrible passing (good skills for a forward, but not good enough for someone playing in the centres)

Anyone who'd pick Waugh over Smith is in need of an entire team of psychiatrists. Waugh should not be anywhere near the Wallaby squad, let alone a starter.
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Given that the wallabies (and the Brumbies) have not won squat for the last few years - with George Smith ("the king/legend/best ever") playing - I suspect that the ABs and SBs will be pretty happy.

It is not only Smith's fault (often he was the best Wallaby on the field), but our opponents won't be losing sleep over facing him.

Maybe I was a little harsh on George, as he has not become a terrible player. He is just not the number one when it comes to the most important (in my opinion) aspects of loose forward (especially open side flanker) play: gaining and retaining possession. In that area Waugh is superior. Smith's kicking and passing is better than Waugh's, but those skills are not enough to tip the balance. Dunning kicks better field goals than Robinson, but that doesn't make him a better prop. One other aspect I failed to mention is the number of penalties Smith gives away, as opposed to Waugh (well that is certainly my impression -maybe I'm wrong on that one. Are there printed statistics on that?).

I will consider consulting my psychiatrist over my preference for Waugh - he's helped me so much already with my violent tendencies.

Yes, Smith has often been voted the best. That means the majority believed him to be the best. At one time the majority believed the world to be flat. I'm sure everyone can think of similar examples - most people think Lote Tiqiri is brilliant too!

Quade Cooper....he, like the Queensland team, reminds me of islander teams (of all levels): when the going is good, and there is loads of time and space, he looks good. When there is hard graft to be done, when there is someone constantly in his face, when things aren't going too well, he falls apart. He has great skills. He has great confidence in himself. He has loads of hair styling products. I think he needs a bit more time in S14 before he is ready to step up.

Ashley-Cooper: which test was the one where he kept dropping the high ball? maybe I'm just remembering multiple tests. I'm not saying he is useless, just not in the top 30.

Cameron Shepherd injured? Shame. I guess that will bring Hynes into my 15.

As far as evidence goes, I can say that I have seen at least 3 S14 matches every week, and highlights of every game every week. Naturally, I would almost never miss a Wallaby match. But, as a wise man once told me, people often see the same events from different seats in the stadium or theatre - and for that reason they see different things.

As a general rule when considering Wallaby selections, I would go for a core of Waratah forwards (especially the front row), plus a smattering of the other teams in the backs.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Langthorne

Belated welcome to the forum.

You are going over the top about Smith. He has been our best player for years. I'm an admirer of Waugh also and I would have hated to see the Tahs without him this year, and for many years, but although I've appreciated his play since he was a nipper for the Narrabeen Tigers, I'd pick Smith ahead of him for the Wallabies.

The exception I have made in recent years is that when Waugh and Smith happened to be named in the same Wallaby 22, and Oz and played against opponents whose game plan was to bash us in the forwards, I would have started Waugh.

Thus I would have started him in that 2007 RWC Q/Final against the Poms and any time against South Africa.

I still think that now, but the days of them starting in the same 22 anymore are probably gone.

As for their stats: a couple of weeks ago Waugh had 9 penalties against him and Smith wan't listed in the top 10 (Brussouw was ahead on 16). Smith had forced 24 turnovers and Waugh wasn't in the top 10. Top was Pocock and Thomson (Highlanders) on 25. Smith was 7th in offloads also, with Waugh not listed.

Your comments on Cooper are too harsh. I don't think you remembered his sidestepping try to win the test match in Padova on the last EOYT. Sure, he didn't have the greatest Super14 just ended, but he would have done better if the Reds forwards had done their job.

Before you make such sweeping statements against players you should watch more rugby - such as every game, every year as I do. If you live overseas and can't watch all the games, fair enough, but in that case you shouldn't be so dogmatic.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Re: My Wallaby 22

Woah it's punchy around here this week - that's what no Aussie teams in the semi's will get you!

LT - a welcome from me as well. Everyone here is keen for new people and new (even very strong) opinions, but as you can see, be prepared to back 'em up from day 1! You'll find plenty of other equally strong viewpoints around the joint.

As a member of the "G. Smith is the best openside in the world" club I'll respectfully disagree on his overall standing, he is still king at the most crucial turnover at the most crucial time. However, I would be very happy if I never saw another of his grubber kicks again.

Minus the islander thing, I do see your point on a certain Q. Cooper. He simply didn't want to know by the end of the season. (And a lot of that try against Italy was down to a certain S. Mortlock 'accidentally' flattening some of the azzuri defence)
 
S

steiner

Guest
Re: My Wallaby 22

Welcome LT. There's something to be said for making your first post a controversial one that's for sure. Let people know you're around. Get the phones ringing, as they say, and you've definitely done that.

Gotta share the popular opinion though. George Smith, the best in the world, only rivalled by McCaw. Except Smith has nearly always strutted his stuff behind a less than dominant pack, at the Brumbies and the Wallabies, McCaw, the opposite at the Crusaders and AB's, yet Smith still matches him!

You've got to give it to Robbie Deans, an entire thread on here devoted to picking the Wallaby bolters and nobody picks Pek Cowan. Pek is there more for his potential I suppose. Could well deliver in the future, we'll wait and see.

Quade Cooper will be there more as a 12 or 15 than a 10, at this stage. As mentioned on here he's a bit flaky as a 10. Pretty much certain now that JOC (James O'Connor) will be the starting 15, I think, and rightly so, but Quade will see some time there I expect. Robbie loves the counter-attackers and Cooper can beat the first man with a step and whistle a pass out to either side to a winger who may be in space.

I'd prefer Lachie Turner to partner Tuqiri on the wing. JOC (James O'Connor) will be coming up in to the front line a bit and when he does, Turner can drop back to fullback. Turner's superior to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) IMO and has a knack for finding his way through tight defences, which means he'll be successful in test footy. Still not perfect in defence but he'll correct that in time. Whether Robbie sees that way, though, is another question.

Lack of a back-up tighthead means Deans is probably going to make a lot of people happy and develop Alexander in the position.
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Thanks everyone for the welcome.


No quarter is asked for nor given.


I had no expectation that I would find widespread agreement on the George Smith issue (I could see that 99% of people picked him in their Wallaby 30).

Although stats tell only a part of the story, I would be interested to know where everyone gets theirs from.

I guess that a big part of my objection to George Smith's game this season for the Brumbies is that a poor grubber kick or a poor pass (say, way above someone's head into touch), usually means a lost opportunity and lost possession. Is there a stat for that? Crap passes, Crap passes per game, Crap kicks, Crap kicks per game?

I'm not saying that George is bludging in the centres - he is just working hard at many of the wrong things, and he clearly thinks he is doing the right thing.

I don't feel the opportunity cost is worth it.

If he cut out the would-be back play I would review my position.

(I've never met the guy, and have no personal grudge against him)


I HAVE NOT SEEN EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY GAME THE PLAYERS IN QUESTION HAVE PLAYED (though I would if I could).

So I missed the part where Q. Cooper got stuck in even when things weren't going his way.

I did see that the Queensland forwards were generally poor (or more accurately, inconsistent), but I don't accept that just because the forwards have done a poor job everyone else is off the hook. Barnes always stood up to be counted.

Could Cooper be a future Wallaby? Yes, he could in time, but not now.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Ashley-Cooper: which test was the one where he kept dropping the high ball? maybe I'm just remembering multiple tests. I'm not saying he is useless, just not in the top 30.

You are right, he is a crap fullback. I'm hoping he will be used in the centres or on the wing where he could excel.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Langthorne said:
Thanks everyone for the welcome.


No quarter is asked for nor given.


I had no expectation that I would find widespread agreement on the George Smith issue (I could see that 99% of people picked him in their Wallaby 30).

Although stats tell only a part of the story, I would be interested to know where everyone gets theirs from.

I guess that a big part of my objection to George Smith's game this season for the Brumbies is that a poor grubber kick or a poor pass (say, way above someone's head into touch), usually means a lost opportunity and lost possession. Is there a stat for that? Crap passes, Crap passes per game, Crap kicks, Crap kicks per game?

I'm not saying that George is bludging in the centres - he is just working hard at many of the wrong things, and he clearly thinks he is doing the right thing.

I don't feel the opportunity cost is worth it.

If he cut out the would-be back play I would review my position.

(I've never met the guy, and have no personal grudge against him)


I HAVE NOT SEEN EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY GAME THE PLAYERS IN QUESTION HAVE PLAYED (though I would if I could).

So I missed the part where Q. Cooper got stuck in even when things weren't going his way.

I did see that the Queensland forwards were generally poor (or more accurately, inconsistent), but I don't accept that just because the forwards have done a poor job everyone else is off the hook. Barnes always stood up to be counted.

Could Cooper be a future Wallaby? Yes, he could in time, but not now.

I can see I'm going to enjoy your posts Langthorne.

I agree re Cooper. Too flakey for mine but Deans did improve him on the EOYT and hopefully he will do so again.
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Re: My Wallaby 22

Scotty said:
Ashley-Cooper: which test was the one where he kept dropping the high ball? maybe I'm just remembering multiple tests. I'm not saying he is useless, just not in the top 30.

You are right, he is a crap fullback. I'm hoping he will be used in the centres or on the wing where he could excel.

I have heard it said he is a great centre. Did he play there at all this S14 season? I seem to recall he played there a bit in the last World Cup - but I also seem to recall I was not impressed (though he wasn't alone).

Playing on the wing, especially the way the Wallabies have been playing (maybe I should start a new thread on that one), requires many of the same skills as playing fullback.

In his defence, he had a few very good games at the end of the S14 season (well the end for the Aussie sides anyway). Just for me not good enough for the Wallabies.
 
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