More pressing concerns...

[Cutter]

Has anyone seen Bruce? If you see him, can you pass on a few questions for me.

Bruce: What do you think about all of this? Do you agree that it seems silly for Barnes, Halangalu and Carter to be competing for the same two spots in the Uni backline? Similarly with Tim Davidson, David Dennis, Phil Waugh, Dean Mumm, Will Caldwell, Ben McCalman, David McDuling and Pat McCutcheon all competing for backrow/back five spots? Or what about Laurie Weekes, Jeremy Tilse, Pat Ryan, Nathan Charles, Ben Roberts and Jerry Yanuyanutawa competing for 3 front row spots? Don't worry, I know I've forgotten the likes of Mitch Inman, Peter Betham, Peter Playford, Luke Burgess, Scott Stumbles, Leo Afeaki and others but I think I've made a point haven't I?

 

[topo]

With the possible exception of Jerry I think every single one of them came through Uni colts. I assume that's the point you're making?

 

[Cutter]

Is that right Topo? Berrick Barnes played colts for Uni did he? And Peter Playford? Are there others? But we both know that's not the point. Uni recruit at colts level because it doesn't have a juniors system. Those guys have come from all over the place and Uni picks the best regardless of where they come from and regardless of whether that means, for example, that Dean Mumm plays off the bench in the grand final.

 

[topo]

Oh, that Barnes. I thought you were talking about the back rower in 3rds.

 

[topo]

I get the impression that people think that Uni steal these players from other clubs' juniors but many of these players are from the country and played most of their formative rugby at boarding school.
from the list above: Carter, Davidson, Caldwell, McCalman, McCutcheon, Tilse and Ryan all fall into this category.

They play for Uni for many reasons. Some of the above are there because they had fathers and uncles at club. Many are there because they saw it as a good opportunity to further their rugby. As Bruce has explained previously none are there on "scholarships" ( you need to review Bruce's post to get the details ) and none of them get paid to play for Uni. It's a good set up and a good culture and good players thrive there.

I played at Uni in the late 70s and early 80s at a time when we were considered the joke of the Shute Shield and twice relegated to 2nd division. Uni's current strength was really born out of a crisis not unlike what Parra now face.
I agree with everyone on this forum that we need a strong Parra in the Shute Shield and I am pleased to see the stronger clubs putting their hands up to help them out of their current troubles. I am confident that Uni will be very supportive.

 

[Lindommer]

With the possible exception of Jerry I think every single one of them came through Uni colts. I assume that's the point you're making?

Phil Waugh played for Warringah juniors, Dean Mumm played for Eastwood juniors and Laurie Weekes (sic) played for Wests Junior Rugby. This is what gives supporters of other Sydney rugby clubs the shits. When all the available talent's corralled at the rich eastern Sydney clubs, and rugby disappears up its own fundament in this city, I wonder if the powers-that-be at Sydney University Football Club acknowledge there's a problem. We need strong rugby competitions in this country; that means strong clubs to play against. Stripping Parra of its best talent does none of us any credit.

For starters, how 'bout Sydney Uni do something about pinching David Campese from Parra's coaching ranks TO PAY HIM $100k TO IMPLEMENT A 7s PROGRAM AT SYDNEY UNI. Appalling. Pathetic. Incredibly self-centred.

 

[Scarfman]

Bruce would say that Uni doesn't steal players they DEVELOP players, and that they don't offer scholarships. I think both of those points are debateable, however.

I realise that there's a lot of resentment about Uni, but I think solutions to the Parra / West Syd problem should be broader in scope.

How about a draft?
How about financial assistance to even up imbalances?
How about recruitment in Western Sydney?
How about recruitment in CHS schools all over the place?
How about recruitment from country NSW?
More ideas?

 

[topo]

C'mon Lindommer. You know that Phil Waugh learned his rugby at Shore, Dean Mumm learned it at Kings and Laurie Weeks at Joeys. Did they have any significant time at their junior clubs after U 14s?

 

[RugbyFuture]

C'mon Lindommer. You know that Phil Waugh learned his rugby at Shore, Dean Mumm learned it at Kings and Laurie Weeks at Joeys. Did they have any significant time at their junior clubs after U 14s?

well kings is basically in parra so it should have plenty of players going to the two blues

 

[Ruggo]

Bruce would say that Uni doesn't steal players they DEVELOP players, and that they don't offer scholarships. I think both of those points are debateable, however.

I realise that there's a lot of resentment about Uni, but I think solutions to the Parra / West Syd problem should be broader in scope.

How about a draft?
How about financial assistance to even up imbalances?
How about recruitment in Western Sydney?
How about recruitment in CHS schools all over the place?
How about recruitment from country NSW?
More ideas?

Rugby in general will have these problems until they can promote the game accross all socio economic classes. Junior development especially, not just school boys but right at the bottom of the grass roots at under 8's and 10's. My time in junior rugby administration was bloody frustrating as we never got the support to promote the game amongst the wider community. We were constantly getting our arse kicked by the AFL's Auskick program, which is an absolute masterclass in junior development. I have always held the view that if we can get kids interested before their teenage years, we stand a better cance of retaining them and developing them to go on to bigger and better things.

well there's my ideas.

 

[matty_k]

well kings is basically in parra so it should have plenty of players going to the two blues

but how many actually live in the Parra area.

 

[RugbyFuture]

well half are boarders whos parents dont love them, then a quarter would probs be from the hills and the northern districts (ryde eastwood area) theres probably plenty

 

[DPK]

well kings is basically in parra so it should have plenty of players going to the two blues

but how many actually live in the Parra area.

Eddies is in Canberra, but Matt Giteau doesnt play for Vikings.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Has anyone seen Bruce? If you see him, can you pass on a few questions for me.

Bruce: What do you think about all of this? Do you agree that it seems silly for Barnes, Halangalu and Carter to be competing for the same two spots in the Uni backline? Similarly with Tim Davidson, David Dennis, Phil Waugh, Dean Mumm, Will Caldwell, Ben McCalman, David McDuling and Pat McCutcheon all competing for backrow/back five spots? Or what about Laurie Weekes, Jeremy Tilse, Pat Ryan, Nathan Charles, Ben Roberts and Jerry Yanuyanutawa competing for 3 front row spots? Don't worry, I know I've forgotten the likes of Mitch Inman, Peter Betham, Peter Playford, Luke Burgess, Scott Stumbles, Leo Afeaki and others but I think I've made a point haven't I?

Actually, Cutter, I've almost given up posting on this site for two reasons:

1. I'm offended by the mob ridicule of players who go out on the paddock week after week and give it their best shot; then find they're the butt of every one's clumsy attempts at humour and/or outpourings of bile; and

2. I get abused if I comment on players that I actually know quite a lot about who happen to play for my Club, but then, as in this instance, am challenged to defend the way the Club operates.

You mention 23 players. To these could be added Lachlan Mitchell, who has come back to Uni after two seasons with London Wasps, and Dan Vickerman who is returning to play for the club during the Cambridge long vacation.

Of the 25, all but two have come through the Sydney Uni development system. If I remember correctly, Peter Playford came to Uni in 2002 after playing for the Roosters.

In 2006, the then Uni First Grade coach Steve Surridge implemented a policy of not recruiting at First Grade level from outside the Club. Since then to my knowledge there have been only two exceptions. Julian Huxley came to the Club from Brisbane when he transferred from the Reds to the Brumbies. Then this year Berrick Barnes joined Uni when he left the Reds to play for the Waratahs.

I know virtually every one of the players mentioned quite well. I would guess that the reason they continue to play for Uni is that they see it as their Club. To me it seems very reminiscent of the glory days of Randwick when they routinely had very talented players in their lower grades.

To me the Sydney Premiership remains essentially an amateur competition, using the word "amateur" in its original sense of signifying someone who does something out of love for it.

 

[wamberal]

I get the impression that people think that Uni steal these players from other clubs' juniors but many of these players are from the country and played most of their formative rugby at boarding school.
from the list above: Carter, Davidson, Caldwell, McCalman, McCutcheon, Tilse and Ryan all fall into this category.

They play for Uni for many reasons. Some of the above are there because they had fathers and uncles at club. Many are there because they saw it as a good opportunity to further their rugby. As Bruce has explained previously none are there on "scholarships" ( you need to review Bruce's post to get the details ) and none of them get paid to play for Uni. It's a good set up and a good culture and good players thrive there.

I played at Uni in the late 70s and early 80s at a time when we were considered the joke of the Shute Shield and twice relegated to 2nd division. Uni's current strength was really born out of a crisis not unlike what Parra now face.
I agree with everyone on this forum that we need a strong Parra in the Shute Shield and I am pleased to see the stronger clubs putting their hands up to help them out of their current troubles. I am confident that Uni will be very supportive.

The best support that Sydney University could give to club rugby would be to encourage their players to move out into the other clubs, after they have graduated. That is what used to happen, a number of great footballers started their careers at Sydney University, and then moved on. All the other clubs, to varying degrees, do a lot to nurture the game at the grass roots, by supporting junior developement. Sydney University does absolutely no junior development - all you do is steal other club's products . Get off your bums and do something for rugby, instead of just for yourselves and your egos.

 

[Lee Grant]

I have bagged Uni before - and Bruce (and will again, I'm sure) - but if you put yourselves in the shoes of an elite young player and see the set up at Sydney Uni you can't blame him for going there.

Many of these lads have been playing for their schools teams on Saturday since they started high school and when they walk out the school gates for the last time they don't necessarily have as strong an affiliation to their district club as they had for their junior club.

Phil Waugh played for the Narrabeen Tigers before he went to the Shore school and although he played for the Warringah District in junior rep games as a nipper, he wouldn't have had a strong affiliation to the Rats. We shouldn't put shit on a player because he's a (whatever) junior and has gone to Sydney Uni, nor them for accepting him.

As for Sydney Uni offering them all kinds of unsavoury inducements to play for Uni: Bruce has put them to rest to my satisfaction after one bagging I gave them. They don't need to. And as for players wanting to stay playing for their club: they should. You don't encourage players to go elsewhere in the real world.

Cutter and others can rail against Uni and I will have a jealous smirk on my face when I read the stuff, but I have a sneaky admiration for them also. On the one hand it is bad for the competition to have so many good players at one club when others don't and some even have trouble getting enough players of any quality - but on the other it's good to have a benchmark for a club to judge itself against.

Anyway, you can't force Uni players to go to other clubs. If players want to play Colts or 2nd grade for Uni when they could play 1st grade elsewhere it's the invisible hand of the market place in action. You can't beat it. You can put up barriers like the player points system they had last year, but when you get down to it you can't change player preferences. If you make the player points system more stringent you could lose players to the game.


[PS - anybody know the details of the player points system? Is it in operation again? Anybody know about how many points (exactly) are given to rep players and if the points change for an international player - and what about taking into account the different number of caps in those categories? And what are the limits? Do you have an idea Bruce?]

 

[mark_s]

The real pity here is that there is loads of league players aged >20 who aren't quite good enough for the NRL that have to settle for playing Jim Beam cup and other suburban league comps. I originally thought that a good portion of these would drift to union as a way of having pursuing a potential profesisonal carreer, espcially in western sydney, but it looks like the opposite is happening.

 

[Cutter]

Bruce I'm sorry to hear you no longer feel comfortable posting here. I value your contributions.

In terms of Uni, I'm railing against the hoarding of talent. I have read what you've said about scholarships etc and I do t doubt you. However I know that when I finished school, Uni did recruit quite aggressively.

Certainly something is working for them but the distribution of wealth is completely skewed. If Parramatta had 5 of the players we named it would make a big difference.

 

[RugbyReg]

1. I'm offended by the mob ridicule of players who go out on the paddock week after week and give it their best shot; then find they're the butt of every one's clumsy attempts at humour and/or outpourings of bile; and

Tom Carter reads this site? Cool.

 

[Scarfman]

1. I'm offended by the mob ridicule of players who go out on the paddock week after week and give it their best shot; then find they're the butt of every one's clumsy attempts at humour and/or outpourings of bile; and

Well Bruce you are welcome to start your own forum and set rules there about not having opinion or a sense of humour. Like Cutter, I value your opinion, except when it comes from high on your horse.

And nobody put a gun to Tom Carter's head forcing him do The Monkey Cloud.