Melbourne Storm / Rebels / Waldrom

[chief]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

pffft, no salary cap in rugby. Bring him on.

I wonder if this will impact on the crowds for the test match in Melbourne. You know the ANZAC Day test they are playing in a couple of weeks?

Will impact NRL crowds but not the test match crowds, because a lot of people just want to check out that new stadium as well. The regular season crowds will be substantially impacted by it all, I reckon for the next few games, it will be a crowd well above 10k. Home games later on in the year, will attract a crowd of well less then 5k. League in Melbourne could be destroyed.

Force should make a huge 3rd party play for Inglis, or Rebels. I say we just raid the Storm.

 

[RugbyReg]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

right, so its being played at the new stadium? I might even flick over.

 

[chief]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

right, so its being played at the new stadium? I might even flick over.

Yeah, the opening of Melbourne Rectangular Stadium. I'd go if i lived in Melbourne, just to check the stadium, then fuck off after the first few minutes.

 

[daz]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

15 Cipriani
14 Slater
13 Inglis
12 Mortlock
11 Betham
10 Cronk
9 Kingi
8 Delve
7 Smith (Cameron)
6 Saffy
5 Byrne
4 Jones
3 Weeks
2 Freier
1 Sommerville.

Here's a crazy idea: Tell the Force to talk to Cronk ASAP with the caveat that they keep their grubby little hands off our Quade! The Reds could even help broker the deal...!

:thumb

 

[the gambler]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Massive news.

Noddy - Think you are down playing Waldrons involvement. There would be plenty of Legal documents that would be signed, not least Stat Decs and Audit forms. I would not want someone who has shown he can lie so easily to be running a new Super Franchise.

 

[Groucho]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

People who think this is a criminal matter are having a severe case of wish fulfilment. A private company only has to declare its financial transactions to the tax man, not to its business partners. For it to be fraud, then money would have to have been stolen. They have clearly broken the rules in respect of their contractual obligations to the NRL however, but that is a civil matter and the CEO of the business is merely jointly responsible, unless he has misled the board.

 

[Ruggo]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Get rid of Waldron quick. Nobody has mentioned the promotional aspect of Melbourne is based around the sqeeky clean image of Rod MacQueen. This will fall in a heap of shit if they don't act now. It would be bad to see Rod get labelled unkindly through guilty by association elements. Wouldren would be up to his neck in this shit. Yes it is easy to to blame the bloke who no longer works for them. My bet is this is the reason he jumped ship so quick. He knew what was going down.

 

[Tiger]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

People who think this is a criminal matter are having a severe case of wish fulfilment. A private company only has to declare its financial transactions to the tax man, not to its business partners. For it to be fraud, then money would have to have been stolen. They have clearly broken the rules in respect of their contractual obligations to the NRL however, but that is a civil matter and the CEO of the business is merely jointly responsible, unless he has misled the board.

I disagree. Firstly, there does not have to be "stolen money" to be fraud. Fraud is generally about dishonesty in the application of property. I'm not saying there is necessarily fraud here, no one can without knowing what really happened, but simply saying "no stolen money therefore no fraud" isn't right. Secondly, failure to comply with tax law obligations in itself can result in criminal liability. A person guilty of keeping false accounts for the purposes of deceiving the tax office can be liable for imprisonment. Is this what happened here? Who knows.

No one is thumping the table and waiting for the cops to kick doors in yet, but there could be some very serious consequences that flow from this. It may take months for that to happen or it may never happen at all. It depends what the actual circumstances are. But for this to happen there has been something very dodgy going on and there a range of laws that could have been breached. That's not "wish fulfilment".

 

[Tiger]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

John Hartigan, chairman and chief executive of the Storm's owner News Limited, said the company had referred the matter to police and installed experienced rugby league administrator Frank Stanton as caretaker chief executive of the Storm.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h0vRnY7jDUcmeI04uHRcbrBhXcIw

 

[stoff]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Channel 9 News in Melbourne was reporting that Waldron was meeting with Harold Mitchell about an hour ago. The media had tried to contact Waldron by SMS, and the message back was basically C'mon mate, no way I'm talking about this. I think he's gone. Heard David Gallop talking about the stat decs in relation to salary caps and payments at the start and end of each season, so will be interesting to see who signed those. Also, the inference I got from Moodie (I think) the Storm chairman was that they will be looking at civil or criminal pursuit of Waldron. At least we can assume he didnt learn this in the AFL because he was never at a team that had the money to pull this kind of thing.

As for Storm fans, I can actually see this having the potential to mobilise them. There is a bit of a feeling down here that the NRL is out to get them with grapple tackles, chicken wing tackles, questionable grand final tries, etc. I can see a beligerant(sp?) element that would take great pride in topping the table in all but points.

Still, hope this is a free kick for the Rebels debut season. We need our players loudly singing the virtues of Rugby (although we need to call it Rugby Union to differentiate) at the moment. Pity this couldn't have happened in about seven weeks.

 

[the gambler]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Agree with Tiger.

There is no doubt some laws have been broken here, whether they be tax laws, corporation laws or criminal laws we will have to wait and see. However I think that people who think big BW should be able to carry on are in for a rude shock.

 

[Groucho]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

I disagree. Firstly, there does not have to be "stolen money" to be fraud. Fraud is generally about dishonesty in the application of property. I'm not saying there is necessarily fraud here, no one can without knowing what really happened, but simply saying "no stolen money therefore no fraud" isn't right. Secondly, failure to comply with tax law obligations in itself can result in criminal liability. A person guilty of keeping false accounts for the purposes of deceiving the tax office can be liable for imprisonment. Is this what happened here? Who knows.

Misreporting of income for taxation purposes is certainly a criminal offence, however no one has suggested that has happened. All the Storm have done, thus far, is break their contract with the NRL.

Imagine I open a franchise in your chain of sweet shops. I agree to limit my spending to x, as a form of cap to protect internal competition. I ignore this and I don't tell you. Have I broken the law? No, I've broken my contract. Have I obtained money by deception? No, unless you have paid me money or gave me goods based on my false reporting.

Consider the case of Formula One teams. They are continually found to break rules related to competition. None of those breaches are frauds, even though they have won prize money and sponsorship as a result. They are a breach of contract and punishable only under contract law.

 

[Tiger]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

I disagree. Firstly, there does not have to be "stolen money" to be fraud. Fraud is generally about dishonesty in the application of property. I'm not saying there is necessarily fraud here, no one can without knowing what really happened, but simply saying "no stolen money therefore no fraud" isn't right. Secondly, failure to comply with tax law obligations in itself can result in criminal liability. A person guilty of keeping false accounts for the purposes of deceiving the tax office can be liable for imprisonment. Is this what happened here? Who knows.

Misreporting of income for taxation purposes is certainly a criminal offence, however no one has suggested that has happened. All the Storm have done, thus far, is break their contract with the NRL.

Imagine I open a franchise in your chain of sweet shops. I agree to limit my spending to x, as a form of cap to protect internal competition. I ignore this and I don't tell you. Have I broken the law? No, I've broken my contract. Have I obtained money by deception? No, unless you have paid me money or gave me goods based on my false reporting.

Consider the case of Formula One teams. They are continually found to break rules related to competition. None of those breaches are frauds, even though they have won prize money and sponsorship as a result. They are a breach of contract and punishable only under contract law.

Like prize money, for example?

 

[Groucho]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Like prize money, for example?

If you make false representations to win prize money then it is a fraud. I wish any lawyer the best of luck in being the first ever, anywhere to get a fraud conviction based on obtaining prize money by deception for the breaking of spending rules.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

People who think this is a criminal matter are having a severe case of wish fulfilment. A private company only has to declare its financial transactions to the tax man, not to its business partners. For it to be fraud, then money would have to have been stolen. They have clearly broken the rules in respect of their contractual obligations to the NRL however, but that is a civil matter and the CEO of the business is merely jointly responsible, unless he has misled the board.

Wrong, Waldron (and the board of directors) had a fiduciary duty to the entity known as the Storm and any and all of its sponsors and supporters.
This has the potential to be very big.
It does however show that the salary cap is a sham and a restraint of trade.

 

[stoff]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

The breach of contract with the NRL would surely have been settled with the $.5m fine. Can't see that being paid without a release being signed. As I read it the criminal/civil element is between the Storm and Waldron. Did Waldron obtain bonuses for premierships and minor premierships based on the dodgy books - who know's, but likely. Or the part mentioned in the previous post. As for criminal it would have to come back to either that or the stat decs. I spend a lot of time working with contracts, but aren't a laywer so I don't know.

 

[Groucho]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Wrong, Waldron (and the board of directors) had a fiduciary duty to the entity known as the Storm and any and all of its sponsors and supporters.
This has the potential to be very big.
It does however show that the salary cap is a sham and a restraint of trade.

Correct, the board has a fiduciary duty to the business (although not to its supporters). However, the Storm isn't a "business partner" of the Storm so I can't see how what I said was wrong - perhaps you misunderstood.

 

[Gagger]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

The Storm won't be the only team doing it.

Waldrom will probably know about at least some of the others.

The coppers have been set on him - he'll need to broker a deal.

This could get very interesting.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Ok, for all those who say nothing illegal has been done, how come the media are reporting & the storm themselves are even saying that the Cops are involved?

Just for shits 'n giggles?

It's one thing to cook the books a little for a salary cap. It's another to have 2 sets of books, of which is one is kept at the CEO's house.

 

[Tiger]

Re: Melbourne Storm stripped of 2007 + 2009 premierships

Like prize money, for example?

If you make false representations to win prize money then it is a fraud. I wish any lawyer the best of luck in being the first ever, anywhere to get a fraud conviction based on obtaining prize money by deception for the breaking of spending rules.

I think that you are missing the point. This may not simply be about "breaking the spending rules"- it's about honesty. Once you start creating false documents, you are in a world of shit. Once you start doing it for the purposes of procuring property from another, that shit multiplies.