Maximising the opportunity of Rugby 7s in Australia

[PRHK]

Good news. 8 September is not too far away. Where can we find more information about this event.

I hope it is better patronised than the Waratah Shield, where there have been nearly as many games forfeited as there have been played.

Hi Hugh!

More good news about the Hong Kong NSW Schoolboys Sevens 2013 Championship - here are some details about the big day:

DATE: Sunday 8th September 2013, 9:30 am to 7:00pm
WHEN: Eastern Suburbs Rugby Club, 22 O'Sullivan Road, Woolhara, Sydney
DETAILS: There are schoolboys and schoolgirls rugby games on all day. The Quarter Finals start at around 3:30pm and the awards/formal presentation at 6:30pm.


Please feel free to forward this to any friends and family!

 

[Pfitzy]

And if you want to see me run my FAT arse around at a corporate sevens event, it's on at Easts on the 20th of September.

The other companies involved BROUGHT a heap of ring-ins last year (including a former Australian sevens player) and the final was a draw after SOME young speedster SNAPPED his ankle during the second half. Ambulance called.


Fixed. Fucking autocorrect.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Pfitzy, predictive text is making your posts amusing.

PRHK, Which teams will be at the Schoolboy sevens? Is there a draw or web site for more information.

At the risk of being PC, I would suggest that the tournament should be retitled the Hong Kong NSW Schools Sevens 2013 Championship if you intend to have "schoolboys and schoolgirls rugby games on all day".

 

[PRHK]

Pfitzy, predictive text is making your posts amusing.

PRHK, Which teams will be at the Schoolboy sevens? Is there a draw or web site for more information.

At the risk of being PC, I would suggest that the tournament should be retitled the Hong Kong NSW Schools Sevens 2013 Championship if you intend to have "schoolboys and schoolgirls rugby games on all day".

Thanks for your suggestion - we'll take it in board!

In regards to the teams, here's a list from NSW Rugby (scroll down):
http://www.nswrugby.com.au/NSWRugby/News/NewsArticle/tabid/374/ArticleID/10148/Default.aspx

The full games is here (opens a PDF):
http://www.nswrugby.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=l0S9HLGm-4Y=&tabid=139

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Teams participating will be:

Pool A
Georges River College, Oatley
Endeavour Sports High
James Sheehan High School, Orange
Lloyd McDermott Rugby Development Team

Pool B
Davidson High
Westfield Sports High
Brisbane Water Secondary College, Woy Woy
Fairfield High

Pool C
St Gregory's College, Campbelltown
Hills Sports High
Ashcroft High
Picnic Point High School

Pool D
Parramatta Marist College
The Scots College, Sydney
Merewether High
Matraville Sports High

How does a particular School qualify for this tournament?

Patrick Higgins from the NSW RU web site says:
"The 2013 Hong Kong NSW Secondary Schoolboys Sevens U18 Championship will kick of this Sunday September 8, with top schools from around the state competing for the coveted state schoolboys title.

Showcasing some of the best rugby talent from around NSW, <snip>"

It seems to me that there are more of the top schools from around the state NOT competing for the coveted state schoolboys title than there are competing for it, and that much of the best rugby talent from around NSW will NOT be showcased.

I like that the three top teams from this tournament will be off to the Gold Coast to compete for the National Schoolboy 7's Under 18 championships, however I pose the question are they actually the 3 best teams to represent NSW?


Great to see Fairfield High School being "inspired to get a team together" to compete against Brisbane Water Secondary Woy Woy, Westfield Sports High and Davidson High, but one gets a feeling that participation in the State Championships with a 3 in 16 chance of going to represent the State at National tournament would require a bit more effort than "getting a team together".

Where are the likes of Augies, New, View, Barker, Waverley etc ?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Teams participating will be:

Pool A
Georges River College, Oatley
Endeavour Sports High
James Sheehan High School, Orange
Lloyd McDermott Rugby Development Team

Pool B
Davidson High
Westfield Sports High
Brisbane Water Secondary College, Woy Woy
Fairfield High

Pool C
St Gregory's College, Campbelltown
Hills Sports High
Ashcroft High
Picnic Point High School

Pool D
Parramatta Marist College
The Scots College, Sydney
Merewether High
Matraville Sports High

How does a particular School qualify for this tournament?

Patrick Higgins from the NSW RU web site says:
"The 2013 Hong Kong NSW Secondary Schoolboys Sevens U18 Championship will kick of this Sunday September 8, with top schools from around the state competing for the coveted state schoolboys title.

Showcasing some of the best rugby talent from around NSW, <snip>"

It seems to me that there are more of the top schools from around the state NOT competing for the coveted state schoolboys title than there are competing for it, and that much of the best rugby talent from around NSW will NOT be showcased.

I like that the three top teams from this tournament will be off to the Gold Coast to compete for the National Schoolboy 7's Under 18 championships, however I pose the question are they actually the 3 best teams to represent NSW?


Great to see Fairfield High School being "inspired to get a team together" to compete against Brisbane Water Secondary Woy Woy, Westfield Sports High and Davidson High, but one gets a feeling that participation in the State Championships with a 3 in 16 chance of going to represent the State at National tournament would require a bit more effort than "getting a team together".

Where are the likes of Augies, New, View, Barker, Waverley etc ?

I'd imagine Scots are there from their results at their own tournament, the LM kids are there as its seen as a vital development tool for indigenous kids (which it is), the sports High have the talent en mass to compete and Greg's are the defending champions and runners up on the GC last year. The rest, well, who know's. Perhaps there have been a number of qualifying tournaments we are unaware of.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

As good as St Gregs are, I don't like the concept of a NSW mob being runners up at Nationals. We need to send our absolute best, with the best competitive preparation, to the Nationals.

While they undoubtably have athletic talent to burn at the Selective Sports High Schools, I saw the Sports Highs play a 1/2 time game of sevens at the Bled Cup Sydney last year (WestFields vs Hills IIRC), it struck me that the teams played a Loig style game using 15 player aside tactics rather than specialist Rugby 7's strategies, and techniques. Their athleticism was impressive but rather inefficient with lots of cross field running and little ball movement.

I concur that Scots, Gregs, the Lloydies, and the Sports Highs will most likely be the ones competing for the invite to nationals.

It is great to see the other Schools there, but should "encouragement" awards be given at the State Championships? IMHO anyone of the 16 teams at the State titles should have a roughly equal chance of being one of the 3 teams that will progress to Nationals, and winning the National title.

 

[southsider]

Showcasing some of the best rugby talent from around NSW, <snip>"

This is nearly laughable its so inaccurate

 

[Jets]

You would think it's a case of "if you build it, they will come". Early days these tournaments struggle as different schools have different plans around their rugby programs but if they can get more schools involved and build the comp then other schools will want to join.

Palm Beach have won the National title recently. I like the fact that some of the best up and coming league talent are being exposed to rugby in some form. It opens another path for them and they may consider 7's as an option in the future.

As for the quote, what do you want them to say? They are trying to hype up the comp.

 

[Braveheart81]

Some of the best rugby talent from around NSW is also a pretty low bar to set.

You probably only need a handful of excellent players and you could fairly argue you've met that claim.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Dollars will drive everything.

Ideally you want a tournament similar to the IRB format where the minnows get to get belted against the top guns, but not too much, before they go into a round robin/knockout against teams of similar skills and capabilities. Either that or a parallel tournament of "up and coming" schools in a 2nd division tournament on a back field while the "big boys" belt each other up on the front field.

The realities are that not many venues are capable of managing a two day or two field tournament, and the logistics associated with overnight accommodation etc for a two day tournament would be very challenging for a tight budget.

I like the "if you build it they will come" because they don't want to miss out or let the other mob run around calling themselves the State Champions.

You just get the feeling that there should be some qualifying tournaments or pathway to the State Championships.

Lots of people will say that there will be problems with the Big Rugby Schools releasing kids from 1sts during the Rugby season. Looking at the IRB Sevens players and how they perform in the 15 aside game, most of the absolute stars at Rugby 7's are fairly average players at the longer version of the game. It could be the case that there are boys in AAGPS 3rd XV's who would be schoolboy 7's stars and who could represent their school with distinction during the "normal" AAGPS without any disruption to the overall rugby programme at the school.


I must say that something is better than nothing, and well done to the NSW RU for at least running the tournament in the first place.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Here's a thought. (I do get them sometimes).

If you are upset that <insert school name> is in the State 7's tournament and not <insert the name of the School I like> which clearly deserves to be there better than the 16 schools listed, then please contact the Head of Sports at <insert the name of the School I like> and politely ask why they are not participating in the State Schoolboy Rugby 7's.

Maybe more Heads of Sport need to get in contact with the NSW RU to nominate their school for this tournament.

 

[wamberal]

Hugh,

I know very little about schools rugby. However, I doubt that a schools Third XV player can be compared with a typical senior Sevens player (all of whom, presumably, would have been good enough to play First XV when they were at school?).

Most top-line Sevens players are good enough to make a Super Rugby squad, arguably. The baseline of talent and athleticism has to be there. So it would at the schoolboy level, as well, meaning that there is little point trying to lower the bar to allow far less talented players to run around in a Sevens tournament, just for the sake of it.

That is not to say that the occasional star would not emerge from the Seconds (eg Farr-Jones and Kearns, and I am sure there are many other examples of late maturers, or poor selection choices by the school coach). But these would be the exception, not the rule, I guess.

We should be trying to get the very best schoolboy (and girls) into any Sevens tournament opportunities, this is one way for them to shine and show their wares in both forms of the game.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The NZ Rugby 7's players struggle to make the Soup squads (perhaps because of the time commitments required by the 7's programme), but they are nothing outstandingly brilliant in the ITM Cup. Victor Vito was a 7's player initially. While he has made the AIG's, he has struggled to be considered first choice for the AIGs in the 15 aside version.

At some of the bigger schools, there is not much difference between a player in the 1sts and one in the 2nds or 3rds. The 3rd best 7's squad from Joeys would most likely be capable of performing with distinction at a State 7's, with little impact on the overall rugby programme at Joeys, even if the tournament was in the middle of the AAGPS season.

Having seen most of the Rep Schoolboy games this year, Barker (the bulk of the CAS rep team) and St Augustines (the bulk of the ISA rep team) would be able to stand up a very competitive Rugby 7's team. From AAGPS, Riverview and Newington would similarly be able to run out teams that be able to compete with the LLoydies, Scots, Sports Highs, and St Gregs.

Like the Waratah Cup/Shield competition for Schoolboy 15 aside bragging rights, the competition is poorer for the absence of certain teams/schools.

As said above, it is easy to criticise from this side of the keyboard in the absence of all the facts. The schools in question may have decided not to nominate themselves, or may not have known about this in advance when they finalised their sports plans for the year. There is a very tight turnaround between the Winter and Summer sports programmes at the AGPS, CAS, and ISA Schools associations.

The parent body associated with Barker, Auggies et al should perhaps be asking a question or two of their sports/rugby masters, and suggesting that they should perhaps consider nominating for next season's tournament.

 

[I like to watch]

I think if they moved the comp to the per season,they might attract more Schools.
The ISA and CAS comps finished a month ago.The yr 12 boys are ramping up the School work now.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

This tournament is designed to dovetail in with the IRB 7's event on the Gold Coast, typically around October-ish. Moving it to the start of the year may be of little value. AAGPS schools will be in the Rowing/Athletics/Basketball season then.

To further confuse things, the Queensland Schools have completely different sporting calenders. Their GPS rugby is term 3 and has a round or two left to go. Some of their other associations run rugby in term 2 and finished their competitions long before NSW CAS and ISA.

To a degree all competitors at the National Schools 7's will be "underdone" in some form or other.

This leads into a point that I have ranted about earlier that there needs to be better coordination and integration of all the various 7's tournaments that are held around the place at Schools, Colts, Club and representative levels. It is all very ad-hoc at the moment and is almost as if it is an afterthought and "gap filler" rather than an pathway in its own right.

As an Olympic gold medal event now, if we are serious about developing a capability to win the gold, then we need to move away from the "she'll be right" ad-hoc approach to rugby 7's, because as sure as there are little green apples, other countries will be taking a very professional and disciplined approach in their quest for Olympic Gold in Rugby Sevens.

 

[wamberal]

The NZ Rugby 7's players struggle to make the Soup squads (perhaps because of the time commitments required by the 7's programme), but they are nothing outstandingly brilliant in the ITM Cup. Victor Vito was a 7's player initially. While he has made the AIG's, he has struggled to be considered first choice for the AIGs in the 15 aside version.

The New Zealanders have led the way in selecting Sevens players relatively early in their careers, streaming them into a Sevens career, then training and equipping them primarily for the short version. The typical fully trained Sevens professional player has a different physical profile to a typical fully trained Fifteens professional. No doubt there are some crossover opportunities, but not many. That is why the best Sevens players are not the best (or even regular) Soup or ITM Cup.

But it would be a brave man indeed who would assert that none of the Sevens squad, had they chosen differently, would not have made a successful career in the longer version. Which is my point, perhaps not well made. They are all bloody good rugby players, just in two different streams, with little latitude for crossover in this competitive, professional, age.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

wamberal, I think we have both been in heated agreement (in a rather arse about way) right from the start.

Like the demise of the bloke that could play for his state or country in a Summer and Winter discipline, the demands of contemporary top level rugby in either 15 or 7 aside are such that raw talent alone is no longer enough to represent state or country at both 7's and 15's rugby.

 

[wamberal]

wamberal, I think we have both been in heated agreement (in a rather arse about way) right from the start.

Like the demise of the bloke that could play for his state or country in a Summer and Winter discipline, the demands of contemporary top level rugby in either 15 or 7 aside are such that raw talent alone is no longer enough to represent state or country at both 7's and 15's rugby.

There are occasional exceptions, Huge Pile, for example, whose raw talent brought him to the fore from subbies. I wonder how many more Huge Piles there are, another beef of mine, playing for the less fashionable, less well-resourced, clubs? (This is off-topic, I guess, but it seems to me to be one of the biggest problems in Australian rugby - the "halo" effect that enables and facilitates the golden boys from the fahionable schools to move into the fashionable clubs, get all the help and attention - and then struggle to achieve much. No names, no pack drill).

 

[I like to watch]

wamberal, I think we have both been in heated agreement (in a rather arse about way) right from the start.

Like the demise of the bloke that could play for his state or country in a Summer and Winter discipline, the demands of contemporary top level rugby in either 15 or 7 aside are such that raw talent alone is no longer enough to represent state or country at both 7's and 15's rugby.

I think it has more to do with opportunity.Many 7's players are pigeon holed as just 7's players.
Didn't Bernard Foley on a stint on the 7's circuit?
I think it's much easier for backs to play both.The mobility required to be a forward,generally indicates a lack of size when compared to similar positions in 15's.