MacQueen turned the Wallabies around in one pre-season

[Scarfman]

Jnor. For some reason Chariots decided to start doing "The MOnkey Cloud" as his try-scoring celebration. Maybe because he looks a bit like Monkey?

For some reason, I haven't got any footage of him scoring tries cool but it looks like this:

[video=youtube;jN1zPBfp9_o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN1zPBfp9_o[/video]

 

[Langthorne]

Scarfman - that was surely a reference to the inimitable 'Jake the Muss' was it not?

Newter - Don't worry, I have done the comparisons too, and have very similar thoughts to you on the topic. My point is that Deans is currently just below Eddie Jones as regards wins with the Wallabies....not in MacQueen's class at all.


Getting back onto topic - What might a coach like MacQueen do now to 'turn the Wallabies around' for the next World Cup?

 

[Gnostic]

That is my principle objection to the way he plays, though I have also been on the record as saying that I don't believe he compares well in the skill department to some of the other Tahs. I don't doubt his commitment though.

Agreed Hornet and Jnor. The off the ball shit and the regular attempted look of innocence when committing blatant illegalities is mainly what annoys me no end. I remember vividly him laying at the back of the ruck in the S14 game against the Lions this year and he was warned by the ref to move. A lions player gave him a nudge on the back with the boot and he flopped about like a landed fish complaining to the ref who rightly penalised him. I remember thinking at the time the Lions forward should have raked the shit out of him.

I said during the Tahs season that Carter gives stability and absolute consistancy at S14 level. His is also very solid on defence and rarely if ever gets caught out of position. In saying that he is a limiting factor in attack, regardless of what he does for Uni at S14 level he rarely passes the ball to effectively set up inside or out players invariably going to ground with it. The opposition have few heart stopping moments confronting knowing they just have to tackle him effectively and take out his legs to stop the drive.

 

[observer]

I earlier described Bruce as a genius because he appears to know his stuff and hey: he invents rugby powerhouse equipment! Then someone reminded me he is President of the Tom Carter Cheerleaders Squad. A flawed genius perhaps?

 

[Gnostic]

Scarfman - that was surely a reference to the inimitable 'Jake the Muss' was it not?

Newter - Don't worry, I have done the comparisons too, and have very similar thoughts to you on the topic. My point is that Deans is currently just below Eddie Jones as regards wins with the Wallabies....not in MacQueen's class at all.


Getting back onto topic - What might a coach like MacQueen do now to 'turn the Wallabies around' for the next World Cup?

I think the point have all been addressed in one post or another:-

1. Player must be picked on proven recent form first and foremost.
2. Bench must be used effectively, putting on players 5 minutes from time does count as effective use so much of the bench use stats posted earlier are skewed as deeper analysis of the stats shows.
3. Whilst there has been a lot of discussion regarding strength/speed coaching etc we have ignored the elephant in the room, which has been a predisposition of Australian coaches to bulk players up thus slowing them and reducing their agility. They may give better results in outright strength and explosiveness but that extra mass saps endurance. Best recent example I can give that everyone will know if Tiquiri - he bulked up in some misguided effort to become the second Lomu and lost his agility and I would argue his effective speed. The on field results also then suffered. I actually feel that the coaching and conditioning set-up is starting to come good in that regard, but it requires the Super coaches to be singing from the same sheet. What is required is that each player have an optimum playing weight identified which strikes the best balance for that individual. (as an aside I have often wondered if some players have been more injury prone as they have been trained and encouraged to play over this optimum weight thereby putting additional stresses on certain joints).
4. Valuing the team/jersey - The ARU IMO made huge errors in buying Tiquiri, Sailor, Tahu and Rogers. The fact that they were a marketting success is not in doubt. The longer term results however can be debated. How much damage was done by these players entering the environment having had no earlier induction to Rugby's ethos and standards. Of the four high profile signings the only one I was sad to see go was Rogers. The current administration have sold the jersey out again IMO letting Elsom walk back in on the EOYT last year without having played in the S14 2009 and on top of that making him Captain. The fact that Elsom has been fair to average since his return exacerbates this.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, what's your view on Cross joining the squad and your view on the best Tahs 2011 backline?

Apologies for being off thread topic but wanted to get the view from the guru.

PT, I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss but I am anything but a guru, particularly when it comes to back play. My opinion has no more validity than the next man.

For what it's worth, I don't think that Ryan Cross has been playing particularly well but he is an experienced campaigner, so I'd be inclined to see how he shapes up in the New Year with a new franchise. Along the same lines, for some time Rob Horne has been playing as if carrying an injury but may be back to his best in the upcoming season.

The danger of making premature judgements about players is illustrated for me by the case of Berrick Barnes. When the 'Tahs signed him I like many others thought it was a real coup. However I thought he had a very ordinary Super 14 campaign, opting for the kick as his primary option. However in recent weeks he has been in absolutely scintillating form. I know that they have only been club games but it seems obvious he'll be putting real pressure on Matt Giteau during the European tour.

I think the 'Tahs have very capable and experienced backline depth which they will need for the extended Super season.

 

[I like to watch]

The danger of making premature judgements about players is illustrated for me by the case of Berrick Barnes. When the 'Tahs signed him I like many others thought it was a real coup. However I thought he had a very ordinary Super 14 campaign, opting for the kick as his primary option. However in recent weeks he has been in absolutely scintillating form. I know that they have only been club games but it seems obvious he'll be putting real pressure on Matt Giteau during the European tour.

Could it be that he is doing the same as you suggest TC is doing @ the tahs?i.e playing to Hicks instructions?
(I too was disappointed with his play @ the tahs, I thought he was going to be a sensation this year)

 

[DPK]

Yeah, Barnes is starting to play the sort of style that got him to the RWC 07.

Giteau: you're out. Barnes in.

 

[Gnostic]

Could it be that he is doing the same as you suggest TC is doing @ the tahs?i.e playing to Hicks instructions?
(I too was disappointed with his play @ the tahs, I thought he was going to be a sensation this year)

Barnes was limited by Hickey's tactics (look at the late season games when they started to play for the bonus points) and also by the selections. Remember Barnes giving Carter an on field lecture about how to run a scissors line.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Barnes has looked sensational in the 10 jersey for Uni in recent weeks. I know it's Sydney 1st grade and not test footy, but the bloke is quality. I'd rather have him at 12 than Giteau right now.

 

[Aussie D]

I don't want to see Barnes in the 12 jumper for the Wallabies or 'tahs period. He has always played his best rugby at 10 and should not be moved from there.

 

[Gnostic]

I don't want to see Barnes in the 12 jumper for the Wallabies or 'tahs period. He has always played his best rugby at 10 and should not be moved from there.

I'm much rather have Barnes at 12 than Giteau. Giteau has been out of form for near on two years and his alleged goal kicking skills were what many had him picked in the 15 over Barnes. Given Giteau numerous examples of poor goal kicking when under real pressure means I would rather see Barnes get the kicking duties full time. If not Barnes than give it to Beale, if he can land them from 55 he can do so from 20.

 

[ChargerWA]

Do we need to have only one kicker? I would prefer to see JOC (James O'Connor) kick anything within 35m, Beale can take the longer ones, not to forget Barnes and Cooper if we have to.

 

[Red Rooster]

The difference between the current Wallabies and the ones Macqueen inherited off Smith was that the cattle in 97 was much better than what we have now plus their were better leaders in the team back then. A big reason for the quick turnaround in our fortunes was that Smith was fairly clueless and in fact i was told by my father who was told directly by a Wallabies support crew member that Smith didn't even have a game plan for the 1997 MCG Bledisloe.

Remember they had an undefeated tour of the UK with Smith in 1996

 

[Gnostic]

Do we need to have only one kicker? I would prefer to see JOC (James O'Connor) kick anything within 35m, Beale can take the longer ones, not to forget Barnes and Cooper if we have to.

IMO JOC (James O'Connor) doesn't make the starting 15. His defence has been questionable in this years tests (though I concede that may be because he has been out of position on the wing) and I prefer a foil for Cooper at 12 instead of a second "creative" player. Plus whoever is at 12 must be able to cover Cooper's inability to defend and I think that is Barnes ATM.

JOC (James O'Connor) is not a wing. Beale is much much better at 15. So JOC (James O'Connor) goes to the bench at best.

 

[ChargerWA]

I agree 100%. I was more talking along the lines if the line up remains unchanged, ie Gits at 12 JOC (James O'Connor) on a wing.

 

[Jethro Tah]

PT, I'm not sure whether you're taking the piss but I am anything but a guru, particularly when it comes to back play. My opinion has no more validity than the next man.

I'm not taking the piss Bruce. Just wanted the opinion of someone who would have seen the recent form of the Tahs from the Shute Shield and thanks for it, and "guru" was referring to your speed/strength info. I will revert to the Tahs thread for my view on the backline.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I'm not taking the piss Bruce. Just wanted the opinion of someone who would have seen the recent form of the Tahs from the Shute Shield and thanks for it, and "guru" was referring to your speed/strength info. I will revert to the Tahs thread for my view on the backline.

Apologies, PT, for being suspicious.

 

[Newter]

I think the point have all been addressed in one post or another:-

1. Player must be picked on proven recent form first and foremost.
2. Bench must be used effectively, putting on players 5 minutes from time does count as effective use so much of the bench use stats posted earlier are skewed as deeper analysis of the stats shows.
3. Whilst there has been a lot of discussion regarding strength/speed coaching etc we have ignored the elephant in the room, which has been a predisposition of Australian coaches to bulk players up thus slowing them and reducing their agility. They may give better results in outright strength and explosiveness but that extra mass saps endurance. Best recent example I can give that everyone will know if Tiquiri - he bulked up in some misguided effort to become the second Lomu and lost his agility and I would argue his effective speed. The on field results also then suffered. I actually feel that the coaching and conditioning set-up is starting to come good in that regard, but it requires the Super coaches to be singing from the same sheet. What is required is that each player have an optimum playing weight identified which strikes the best balance for that individual. (as an aside I have often wondered if some players have been more injury prone as they have been trained and encouraged to play over this optimum weight thereby putting additional stresses on certain joints).
4. Valuing the team/jersey - The ARU IMO made huge errors in buying Tiquiri, Sailor, Tahu and Rogers. The fact that they were a marketting success is not in doubt. The longer term results however can be debated. How much damage was done by these players entering the environment having had no earlier induction to Rugby's ethos and standards. Of the four high profile signings the only one I was sad to see go was Rogers. The current administration have sold the jersey out again IMO letting Elsom walk back in on the EOYT last year without having played in the S14 2009 and on top of that making him Captain. The fact that Elsom has been fair to average since his return exacerbates this.

Gnostic, I can't agree with your prescriptions here.

1. Robbie's problem as a selector isn't about ignoring proven, recent form. He does pick the best players (who has he left out?). He just sometimes picks them out of position. Richard Brown is a good Test 7 or bench player, not a starting 8. And Matt Giteau is a great ball runner/tackler, not a playmaker. Brown and Giteau should be in the team, but in different roles that use their strengths. Happily this has now happened.

2. The Bench issue is a furphy, IMO. There's no urgency to use the bench if the replacements aren't much chop.

3. Interesting point. I wonder if Hugh McMeniman's record of injury has to do with him piling on 10kgs to play in the second row?? But as you say, we don't seem to be making this mistake anymore - KB (Kurtley Beale)'s weight loss being a case in point.

4. I have to say, I agree with this. Tuqiri never seemed to be much of a team leader - he was immature. I mean, pushing teammates onfield, sleeping with teenagers, late night drinking sessions? He was a kid.
The discipline seems a lot better now, although I'd love to see some clear moves toward building pride in the Wallaby jersey, its history and traditions. Steve Waugh used to do it in cricket, Rod MacQueen took his charges to French battlefields, Jake White got Nelson Mandela to address the side. It makes a significant difference.

 

[Gnostic]

Gnostic, I can't agree with your prescriptions here.

1. Robbie's problem as a selector isn't about ignoring proven, recent form. He does pick the best players (who has he left out?). He just sometimes picks them out of position. Richard Brown is a good Test 7 or bench player, not a starting 8. And Matt Giteau is a great ball runner/tackler, not a playmaker. Brown and Giteau should be in the team, but in different roles that use their strengths. Happily this has now happened.

2. The Bench issue is a furphy, IMO. There's no urgency to use the bench if the replacements aren't much chop.

3. Interesting point. I wonder if Hugh McMeniman's record of injury has to do with him piling on 10kgs to play in the second row?? But as you say, we don't seem to be making this mistake anymore - KB (Kurtley Beale)'s weight loss being a case in point.

4. I have to say, I agree with this. Tuqiri never seemed to be much of a team leader - he was immature. I mean, pushing teammates onfield, sleeping with teenagers, late night drinking sessions? He was a kid.
The discipline seems a lot better now, although I'd love to see some clear moves toward building pride in the Wallaby jersey, its history and traditions. Steve Waugh used to do it in cricket, Rod MacQueen took his charges to French battlefields, Jake White got Nelson Mandela to address the side. It makes a significant difference.

Newter you contradict yourself with points one and two. Why isn't the bench much chop? Because he selected the wrong players and hence they had nothing to offer on balance at the end of games. However even after the lesson of Bloemfontein Deans failed to use his bench in any meaningful way against NZ in the last 3N game when it was clear to all that some were struggling. Also when is Giteau's RECENT proven form? He was poor in S14 this year and has been poor with a very good game thrown in in Tests for two or more years. One game a year just isn't good enough. We don't even need to go to the selection of Ma'afu or returning to Chis at lock.