Lions Tour Thread

[Blue]

(Boss, no Lions logo so I used the Oirish logo.)

Soooooo after the Super 14 all Saffer attention will turn to the dirty bastards from the North, The British and Oirish Lions.

Can't wait so I thought I'd start a thread. There will be lots to talk about as the tour draws nearer.

An article on Keo.co.za caught my eye today. Legend Willie Jon McBride reckons O'Connel will boss Matfield, Now I am a huge McFan of O'Connel, but poor old McBride must bet getting a bit old and I reckon hasn't much watched the Southern Hemisphere comps. If he had a bit more insight into how Botha and Matfield play together, he would realise that in terms of the role O'Connel plays, he will arrive at the ruck and not find Matfield, but one angry Bakkies Botha (otherwise known as Jowels Gouge McBotha) will be waiting.

The defining clash in the forwards will be between these two. O'Connel and Matfield will battle it out in the lineout (and perhaps they won't if they decide to play another no 5 jumper), but Willie Jon should worry more about Bakkies and O'Connel and how they'll man up to the challenge which I have no doubt, both will. Mouthwatering to say the least.

So all in all a totally failed attempt at talking smack but amusing nonetheless. With all due respect, sometime lejunds should rather not say anything.

Now, it will be good if a bastard or two from up North can start discussing some possible team selections for a starting Lions Test 15. Even though I watched some 6N and Guinness matches, some positions are still a bit of a blur.

The Lions position that look unclear to me are (ie. I do not know enough about all the players in the squad as to who is most likely to fill that position):

Hooker - None of the hookers in the squad really impress me I have to say
Lock partner to the Captain - specialist 5 jumper most equipped to deal with MAtfield? The talk was of Shaw being brought in as another hard man but they give awya in the linout if they play O'Connel / Shaw, no?
Blindside - haven't a clue
No 8 - ditto
Halfback - diditto
Second Five Eight Will depsnd on who of the two first fives start?
Fullback - a few really good contenders

These positions are uncertain to me but maybe because like I said, I don't have enough knowledge of the players in the squad to know who the real standout candidates are.


PS Here is the full text of the McBride article:

?O?Connell to boss Matfield?

Lions legend Willie-John McBride believes Paul O?Connell will win his personal battle with Victor Matfield.

McBride famously captained the 1974 Lions to victory in South Africa. A former lock himself, McBride noted the importance of the personal duel between the second-rowers and said he backed his countrymen to come out on top.

Bakkies Botha is set to line-up next to Matfield, but O?Connell?s partner could be fellow Irishman Donncha O?Callaghan, Alun-Wyn Jones or Simon Shaw.

Matfield is widely regarded as one of the best locks in world rugby but McBride expects the Lions captain to strike a massive psychological blow for his team.

?The tour will be won and lost up front and Matfield has a huge influence on the Springboks but I don?t know if he?s playing well as O?Connell,? McBride told The Times of London. ?O?Connell?s full of confidence and this is all about players being on their game.?

McBride was not as confident in other members of the squad in terms of their experience. Only four players ? Nathan Hines, Gethin Jenkins, Shane Williams and Stephen Jones ? have played more than a couple of Tests in South Africa and McBride emphasised how difficult it is to tour the country.

?I have some fears,? said the veteran of five Lions tours. ?I don?t know if these players have enough experience of South Africa. It?s a tough, tough place to play. The distance, hard grounds, sun shining, faster game, altitude. All of that hits you. We could win it but that could be the critical issue of the tour.

?The last time Ireland went there, they got beaten. The last time Wales went, they got beaten. We are playing the world champions and I just hope these guys realise what that means. South Africa do not understand defeat. You never beat South Africa, you just score more points than them sometimes.?

OK, time for the Rugby Club (ie time to listen to Kafer and barely tolerate the rest.)

 

[PaarlBok]

Thanks Blue. Its quite some time we had a decend tour in SA, feel like decades. Myself a big tour supporter and I think you'll see a quite different spirit in our rugby once they hit the green grass of SA. If my memory are correct its way to soon to start talking about Bakkies and MacDonald, that first test have a tough kind of foreplay to it. One thing will be sure , all our teams from the smallest places or provinces or combination will try and upset and hurt them first up. They will soften the "bleek bene" and try and break them before the first test.

In the past teams could only gathered the week before a test if I remember correct but look at the way it has change these days.

Somewhere in here
06 Jun Cheetahs v Lions 15:00
10 Jun Sharks v Lions 19:10
13 Jun Vodacom Western Province v Lions 15:00

they have to worry before the first test. Hope the Springbokke will be available for their provinces.

 

[Blue]

Thanks Blue. Its quite some time we had a decend tour in SA, feel like decades. Myself a big tour supporter and I think you'll see a quite different spirit in our rugby once they hit the green grass of SA. If my memory are correct its way to soon to start talking about Bakkies and MacDonald, that first test have a tough kind of foreplay to it. One thing will be sure , all our teams from the smallest places or provinces or combination will try and upset and hurt them first up. They will soften the "bleek bene" and try and break them before the first test.

In the past teams could only gathered the week before a test if I remember correct but look at the way it has change these days.

Somewhere in here
06 Jun Cheetahs v Lions 15:00
10 Jun Sharks v Lions 19:10
13 Jun Vodacom Western Province v Lions 15:00

they have to worry before the first test. Hope the Springbokke will be available for their provinces.

Doubt that I thought the Boks go into camp the week after the Super 14 final? Not worth the injury risk.

Best news is I hear JdV is over the groin problem.

 

[Cutter]

Now, it will be good if a bastard or two from up North can start discussing some possible team selections for a starting Lions Test 15. Even though I watched some 6N and Guinness matches, some positions are still a bit of a blur.

The Lions position that look unclear to me are (ie. I do not know enough about all the players in the squad as to who is most likely to fill that position):

Hooker - None of the hookers in the squad really impress me I have to say
Lock partner to the Captain - specialist 5 jumper most equipped to deal with MAtfield? The talk was of Shaw being brought in as another hard man but they give awya in the linout if they play O'Connel / Shaw, no?
Blindside - haven't a clue
No 8 - ditto
Halfback - diditto
Second Five Eight Will depsnd on who of the two first fives start?
Fullback - a few really good contenders

These positions are uncertain to me but maybe because like I said, I don't have enough knowledge of the players in the squad to know who the real standout candidates are.

Blue I live up hear so I will have a crack.

Hooker - I think it has to be Flannery with Mears Left Right Out. He is even more of a hobbit than Frier.

Lock - I reckon Nathan Hines is the Man. If he plays, he will confront Bakkies at the ruck and maul and leave O'Connell to deal to Matfield. Hines is big, strong, hard, skilful and aggressive. That he was picked for the Lions notwithstanding that he was injured for most (all?) of the 6N is a testament to the regard in which he is held by the selectors.

Blindside - the whole makeup of the backrow is up in the air for mine. I would probably play Williams and Wallace (7 and 6) and put the Oirishman at 8. If Ryan Jones is picked to replace Quinlan, I would play him at 8.

Halfback - definitely Mike Phillips. Blair should be on the bench for mine.

Second Five - I think it has to be Roberts with Flutey on the bench. I cant see another 12 in the squad who is capable of damaging the Boks in attack and defence. They will really miss Henson who is a quality player.

Fullback - It has to be Byrne. He was good in November and the first part of the 6N. His form dropped off after injury in the second part but he has real class, a good boot and could cut the Boks up on counterattack.

 

[Blue]

Word has it that Frans Steyn is making a much quicker than thought recovery and should be ready for the Lions.

My current predicted squad (not quite preferred though):

15. Steyn - asuming fit else Kirchner (I prefer Ludick ahead of either)
14. JP Pietersen (Better kicking game than Nokwe so sorry)
13. Jacques Fourie
12. Jean de Villiers
11. Habs (regaining form. Nokwe until last week was way ahead of him)
10. Ruan Pienaar
9. Fourie Du Preez
8. Spies
7. Juan Smith
6. Schalk (I prefer Brussow)
5. Vic
4. Jowels Gougeton MCBotha
3. Smit (I prefer Jannie Doep)
2. Bismarck (I prefer Smit and Bismarck off the bench with Smit later on moving to 3)
1. Beast

Bench
16 Jannie Du Plessis (at least for first test please Snor, we need to see how Smit goes)
17 Gurthro Steenkamp (Beast goes nuts for 50 and then replaced)
18 Danie Rossouw
19 Bekker / Brussow / Schalk (Schalk or Brussow with Bekker likely to miss out unless 5/2 split)
20 Januarie (Jano Vermaak deserves it and I would rather see Kockot before the overweight Uruk-Hai)
21 Adi Jacobs covers 12,13,14
22 Earl Rose covers 10,15 (Snor likes Rose, but I would have Morne Steyn to cover 10 and 15 and as backup kicker)

Don't expect it looking much different.

Only change might be a 5/2 split on the bench with Bekker back in. Spies can cover wing in a crisis.

 

[PaarlBok]

Yep, look like having it spot on. No need for drastic changes. Dont think Bakkies will like that Aussie type name you gave him.

 

[Biffo]

Looks a very good side. 3-0.

 

[Biffo]

Yep, look like having it spot on. No need for drastic changes. Dont think Bakkies will like that Aussie type name you gave him.

Don't care whether he likes it or not. It's accurate.

Anyone ever notice that Botha is only one quarter the player when Matfield isn't there to protect him from retribution for his cheap shots?

I hope the EEELs select Nathen Hines to start. He'll sort Botha right out.

 

[Blue]

Yep, look like having it spot on. No need for drastic changes. Dont think Bakkies will like that Aussie type name you gave him.

Don't care whether he likes it or not. It's accurate.

Anyone ever notice that Botha is only one quarter the player when Matfield isn't there to protect him from retribution for his cheap shots?

I hope the EEELs select Nathen Hines to start. He'll sort Botha right out.

Like the previous three times they have met? Hines is a great player, maybe he can do more damage if he works in a better pack than he usually does,

They should play another 5 lock and let O'Connel and Bakkies tough it out. That has more entertainnment value/

As for Bakkies I thought he fixed a lot of his shit until the Waugh incident. He got read the riot act by Jake White before the World Cup and improved as far as infringements are concerned, Unfortunately he keeps taking ten steps back. Sad thing is he is such an amazing player when he's on.

 

[Biffo]

Yep, look like having it spot on. No need for drastic changes. Dont think Bakkies will like that Aussie type name you gave him.

Don't care whether he likes it or not. It's accurate.

Anyone ever notice that Botha is only one quarter the player when Matfield isn't there to protect him from retribution for his cheap shots?

I hope the EEELs select Nathen Hines to start. He'll sort Botha right out.

Like the previous three times they have met? Hines is a great player, maybe he can do more damage if he works in a better pack than he usually does,

They should play another 5 lock and let O'Connel and Bakkies tough it out. That has more entertainnment value/

As for Bakkies I thought he fixed a lot of his shit until the Waugh incident. He got read the riot act by Jake White before the World Cup and improved as far as infringements are concerned, Unfortunately he keeps taking ten steps back. Sad thing is he is such an amazing player when he's on.

Morning, Mate

I am happy to agree with all you write here. We shall, hopefully, be able to find out how good Hines is when he is in a good pack. His play with the Scots has been astonishing, given the quality of his mates.

 

[Blue]

Yep, look like having it spot on. No need for drastic changes. Dont think Bakkies will like that Aussie type name you gave him.

It's Scottish. O0

 

[Lindommer]

Hines is a great player...

Of course he is, what else do you expect of blokes born in the sporting capital of the western world, Wagga Wagga? ;D ;D ;D

 

[Blue]

So Ruan Pienaar limped off on Saturday. He was apparently on crutches after the game with ankle ligament damage. Initial prognosis is four weeks. First test is 5 weeks away so unless he makes a miraculous recovery he is not a likely starter at 10.

This leaves four options:

Earl Rose, who can't get a start for the Lions but Snor has man love for him
Frans Steyn - hopefully his deficiencies were shown up for the Sharks. I doubt he is a chance and is likely to play 15 if he is fit.
Peter Grant - Snor and Co didn't fancy him last year because, mainly because of his kicking game.
Morne Steyn - the logical choice. Much improved kicking game, excellent goal kicking, very good pass to both sides and solid enough in defense. Most importantly his partnership with Fourie du Preez is plug and play.

The Lions games are going to be tight and we are unlikely to start getting expansive now, regardless of what Snor thinks and says. So Morne Steyn has to be the answer and I will be praying that Snor sees it this way. I don't know what I'll do if he picks Frans Steyn or Rose. Something like, me, my kayak and the open ocean or violent wretching. Possibly both.

 

[PaarlBok]

Yep agree. If FdP starts , so do have Morne. He had a fantastic game on saturday and you dont get them closer to test rugby then this one. My other thoughts after the weekend(and we should update this on a weekly basys)

FullBack: Kirscner impressed me. I dont like Oupa Terreblanche and Joe Pietersen sort of buried Daniller on performance on the weekend. He still is way to young and light for Bok selection but wont mind Steyn or Jac Fourie in 15. Jac I think will be the pick if AD plays 13.
Wings: Nokwe was piss poor against the Stormers and the way that man Pieterse hand off him , goodbye. Habana sure look great and so did JP Pietersen.
13 AD or Mossie
12 Jean or Steyn
10 Pienaar/Morne Steyn like we discussed.
9 Fourie du Preez or Janno Vermaak. Dont like Corky and Januarie is way of the pace. He frustrated the kak out of me when he entered as a sub to Dewaldt and cost us a try , try to format the forwards for drives in stead of passing the ball.
8 Spies.
7 Juan Smith . Must say Pakslae my next pick. He sure is worth a place and after saturday even more so.
6 Schalk. Wont be surprise to see Brussouw but must add I thought Stegmann sure was great. I like him.
Locks: Bakkies & Matfield with Bekker /Pakslae as backup. Muller is neither here nor there.
3. Smith or Jannie Doep. Thought Smith was OK against Guthro and is progressing week after week.
2 Bismarck/Smith/Strauss. That order hasnt change.
1 Beast/Guthro. Beast was vrekken impressive. Bliksem his run with Matfield trying to stop him was nice to watch.

Thats more or less I think they will go.

 

[Blue]

Latest news from SA is that Pienaar will be fit. Thank fark for that.

Ruan Pienaar will be fit to face the British & Irish Lions.

The Sharks? medical staff confirmed that the Springbok flyhalf, who limped off against the Bulls on Saturday, had suffered a grade two ligament sprain in his ankle and will be out for a maximum of three weeks. The first Test against the Lions in Durban is on 20 June.

There were fears that Pienaar would miss the tour as the injury looked to be fairly serious as he left the field supported by two members of the team?s medical staff. This news allays those fears.

The Springbok selectors are surely breathing a deep sigh of relieve given that they were left short of pivot options following news that World Cup winner Butch James ruptured knee ligaments playing for Bath and will be sidelined for an extended period.

At one stage it seemed as if the Springboks would be forced to field an understrength side in at least the first Test. Adi Jacobs, Jean de Villiers, Andries Bekker and Schalk Burger all sustained injuries in the Super 14, but all look set to be fit to play a full role in the series, barring a recurrence of those injuries.

Stormers fullback Conrad Jantjes is the only long-term absentee. He broke his leg against the Chiefs and will not play for the remainder of the year.

 

[Biffo]

I watched the 2003 RWC final in a bar in Polokwane. My two Australian mates and I were among 150 Saffers, to a man screaming furiously for the poms. An interesting experience.

I am not a vengeful fellow. In 2007 I strongly supported the Bokke against the poms in the RWC final. Now I will be supporting the Bokke against the EEELs which is a ridiculous concept.

Bokke 3-0

 

[Blue]

I watched the 2003 RWC final in a bar in Polokwane.

My two Australian mates and I were among 150 Saffers, to a man screaming furiously for the poms. An interesting experience.

Something I would not wish on my worst enemy. You're still alive. You're lucky.

Not surprising. South Africans generally don't see the need to compete with the Poms at every turn and don't feel the same level of disdain for the Poms if I may be so bold.

It's basically a case of the rivalry they feel with Australians being a stronger emotion. The English speaking South Africans don't have the same negative connotation with the Poms as the Aussies do. The colonial histories of the two countries are different.

Somehow the Afrikaners on the whole have made peace with the fact that the Poms chucked our wives and kids in concentration camps and starved them. (PS and got Australian soldiers to mind them but that's a whole other story).

Ask your average Saffer why he doesn't like Aussies and he'll mumble something like "arrogant", "Shane Warne", "parochial" but there will be no real conviction to his answer.

In short, the average Saffer in SA hates an Aussie more than a Pom but he can't really tell you why because he hasn't met many Aussies, if any.

I think there is also this thing that Saffers feel they need to compete with Aussies. Both colonies stuck on the arse end of the earth. Both chucked in the bush and having to fend against the elements, the great colonial oppressor etc etc. That bred a bit of competitiveness in a weird sort of way if that makes any sense.

It's only once I moved here that I realised both nations actually know absolutely sweet fuck all about one another and have based their views on a lot of cliches, most incorrect or badly influenced by Shane Warne and a Monty Python skit.

The converse shaped by Rich South Africans coming to Australians, buying houses on hills and a boat or two and using the words "when we" all too often. Oh and Bakkies Botha as well as other testosterone charged individuals play their role of course.

I am not a vengeful fellow. In 2007 I strongly supported the Bokke against the poms in the RWC final. Now I will be supporting the Bokke against the EEELs which is a ridiculous concept.

Bokke 3-0

I shall buy you a beer for that statement if ever we meet my dear fellow.

 

[Biffo]

I watched the 2003 RWC final in a bar in Polokwane.

My two Australian mates and I were among 150 Saffers, to a man screaming furiously for the poms. An interesting experience.

Something I would not wish on my worst enemy. You're still alive. You're lucky.

Not surprising. South Africans generally don't see the need to compete with the Poms at every turn and don't feel the same level of disdain for the Poms if I may be so bold.

It's basically a case of the rivalry they feel with Australians being a stronger emotion. The English speaking South Africans don't have the same negative connotation with the Poms as the Aussies do. The colonial histories of the two countries are different.

Somehow the Afrikaners on the whole have made peace with the fact that the Poms chucked our wives and kids in concentration camps and starved them. (PS and got Australian soldiers to mind them but that's a whole other story).

Ask your average Saffer why he doesn't like Aussies and he'll mumble something like "arrogant", "Shane Warne", "parochial" but there will be no real conviction to his answer.

In short, the average Saffer in SA hates an Aussie more than a Pom but he can't really tell you why because he hasn't met many Aussies, if any.

I think there is also this thing that Saffers feel they need to compete with Aussies. Both colonies stuck on the arse end of the earth. Both chucked in the bush and having to fend against the elements, the great colonial oppressor etc etc. That bred a bit of competitiveness in a weird sort of way if that makes any sense.

It's only once I moved here that I realised both nations actually know absolutely sweet fuck all about one another and have based their views on a lot of cliches, most incorrect or badly influenced by Shane Warne and a Monty Python skit.

The converse shaped by Rich South Africans coming to Australians, buying houses on hills and a boat or two and using the words "when we" all too often. Oh and Bakkies Botha as well as other testosterone charged individuals play their role of course.

I am not a vengeful fellow. In 2007 I strongly supported the Bokke against the poms in the RWC final. Now I will be supporting the Bokke against the EEELs which is a ridiculous concept.

Bokke 3-0

I shall buy you a beer for that statement if ever we meet my dear fellow.

Thanks for the exposition, Mate. Little of it was new to me - I have spent about 10 months in that glorious country and thus know a little about its people. Some of our fellow members of the board may find this exchange enlightening.

I went to Port Elizabeth three weeks after the 2003 RWC final. I had the great delight of meeting several much younger than I South Africans (Afrikaaner and Anglo in origin) for a few drinks on a few occasions. We discussed my Piet Polokwane incident and they opined pretty much as you have. They did raise the point that many South Africans detested Australians because they won so much. We then looked at what had happened in Australian sport in the three weeks since the RWC final - the Kangaroos annihilated Great Britain in the third RL test on the same day as the RWC final and Australians had then gone on to win something like men's and women's world cup hockey, a world surfing championship, a big golf championship, the Davis Cup (?) and a world triathlon championship. All that in three weeks rather overshadows missing out on the RWC. One lady commented "you'd better not go back to Piet Polokwane now"! She couldn't have been more wrong - after the RWC final, every Saffer in that bar wanted to buy beers for me and my two mates and could not have been more pleasant. A people of great contrasts.

Should I point out to our board that Piete Polokwane is the real heart of Blue Bull territory?

 

[PaarlBok]

Biff think Limpopo (vok I hate this names with a passion) or Verre Noord Transvaal is the heart of the Brutes. Those places Blue and Bakkies tells you about, All Days & Polokwane , no shite Pietersburg the one I know. But hell surprise you walked around there.

Thing is our lot like to fight hard on the field but soft off the field and can take a loss on the chin and move on. We surely see the Aussies in your cricket lot performances. We sort of respect the All Blacks in rugby and Australia in cricket. The likes of Warne did not help much for the Aussie generalisation. Unfortunately the Boer lot will look at you that way.

Rugby people is far from the Poofbaal hooligans, and that Boer lot will be first to congratulate you after your team win BUT if you lose you'll here it and never tell them the ref cheats. Thats mos your first wind up one. :lmao:

 

[PaarlBok]

The Poms or Soutie lot is a totally diffirent story. I grow up in a diffirent time frame as Blue. My dad loved rugby but he would walk out the door if they play the anthems "God save the Queen" before tests. He refuse point blank to speak english and told me he had one huge hiding at school for refusing to speak it. The teachers in those days would have put their heads between the knees and moered them. He bite the teacher and ran back to the farm, refuse to go back to school.

It took myself a very long time to get behind all of this and today I see language only as a way of communication. For them it was about the principal. Afrikaans suffer like hell to survive at the moment, so maybe we should start the Groot Trek again.

Hell I talk way to much now.