Just a thought about a player's national squad eligibility

[dudebudstud]

I sort of understand the argument to not allow players who play outside of Australia to be eligible for the Wallabies, but I think my idea is a good alternate.

I don't like the idea of the sabbatical, or losing players in the years between World Cups and then rushing them back into the domestic league and national squad a year or so before the tournament. It creates too much instability in the national squad - having to rush a new player into the team and then bumping an established player and so on.

I also agree with the argument that if you start losing players to the French and UK domestic leagues it hurts the quality of play in the Super15 and NPC etc. And that the lure of putting on the national jersey should be enough to keep Australian players in Australia. But the truth is besides the big money to play in the French or English leagues, sometimes players want a change of rugby scenery.

My proposal is to take the policy of allowing one (or is it two) players who aren't eligible for national selection (because they are not Australian) on each Super 15 team, and taking it further.

Why not allow any Kiwi, Australian or South African player, to play for any Super 15 team, and still maintain eligibility for the national squad?

I think under this model, the Super 15, and all teams in it wouldn't suffer from a drop in quality, and it will also allow players that change in scenery. The league overall will still contain the same pool of players, just on different teams. An added benefit is that players will be exposed to different systems of play and coaching. Imagine some of the Wallaby forwards being able to play under the coaching of a South African team - might introduce some more mongrel to the Australian pack. Or some of the Aussie backs becoming part of the Crusaders team and playing alongside Dan Carter.

Also, it would allow players who are just outside of national squad contention to resurrect their careers, without having to go to Europe(therefore eliminating their chances for a Wallabies jumper). So a player like Peter Hewat (from a few years back), wouldn't have had to go to England and lose Wallaby eligibility. He could have gone to play for a SA or NZ based S15 team and given the national selectors another look at him. Nick Evans, and Carl Hayman come to mind for the All Blacks as players who may still be around and available if they had this option.
Or even Daniel Braid who could have re-signed with the Reds and still be able to play for the ABs instead of having to go back to Auckland.



Any thoughts?

 

[qwerty51]

I'm pretty sure as long as you play for a SANZAR team (Super rugby) you are eligible for your country.

 

[dudebudstud]

I wasn't sure if this was rattified or not. Is it accepted by all the three SANZAR teams? I am pretty sure NZ doesn't want their ABs playing outside of NZ.

 

[JJJ]

It's a nice thought having our forwards trained up in SA and our backs in Canterbury. More likely our backs would go to SA and our forwards would stay right where they are.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm pretty sure as long as you play for a SANZAR team (Super rugby) you are eligible for your country.

No, this is not true...

To be eligible for wallaby selection you must play for an Aussie super team...

And to be eligible for the all blacks you must play for an NZ team...

SA are the only country in sanzar who make the exception...

 

[Lee Grant]

There were some good thoughts in there dude. Commenting on some of your thoughts, in bold:

Why not allow any Kiwi, Australian or South African player, to play for any Super 15 team, and still maintain eligibility for the national squad? I know what you mean but by using the word "eligibility" you are blurring the use of the word that the IRB uses in Regulation 8, with the practice of Oz and NZ of excluding overseas players from their national squads. More South African players play in Europe than the other SANZAR countries becuse of the Kolpak ruling but they are frequently selected for their national squads. But in the case where a domestic player is judged to be at the same level as an overseas player they invariably pick the local guy.

So a player like Peter Hewat (from a few years back), wouldn't have had to go to England and lose Wallaby eligibility. A poor example, I fear. He was released by the Tahs before his contract was up on application by Hewie who realised, correctly, that he was not going to be picked for the Wallabies, and had received a good offer from the Exiles. He was still eligible for the Wallabies according to the IRB but would always be excluded because of ARU policy.

Nick Evans, and Carl Hayman come to mind for the All Blacks as players who may still be around and available if they had this option. Or even Daniel Braid who could have re-signed with the Reds and still be able to play for the ABs instead of having to go back to Auckland.The Kiwis are taking a strong line to protect their domestic comp and I agree with them. They cannot compete with the Euro clubs, especially the French ones funded by billionaires or city industries. Evans is the form flyhalf of the Premiership this season and the Blacks would have loved to have had him in 3N and on their EOTY to back up Dan The Man but it was a price they were willing to pay. Ditto Hayman.

I don't think they would have minded if Braid had stayed in Oz as they could have kept their eye on him, but they didn't want to make an exception.

The idea of Oz and NZ allowing their players to play in Super teams from the other two countries as they did in the 90s IIRR (and one assumes that the RSA would allow it anyway) yet still be picked for their national squads is interesting and has been discussed before.

The NZRFU policy is not to pick Kiwis in their 3N squad unless they have played for a NZ based team in the Super tournament preceding the competition. Kiwis who have played overseas can be picked for their EOYT if they rock up to play in the NPC (now called the ITM Cup); thus SBW toured last month.

I don't think that Oz imposes these constraints. Rocky Elsom missed the 2009 S14 because he was still involved with Leinster but he came back into the 3N squad during the 2009 3N.

Your points about our players learning from playing within different rugby cultures etc etc are good, but Oz rugby seems to be battling on with what we have now. We have quite a few full time professionals playing overseas, but as I mentioned before: on form and fitting into our EOYT's needs (and ignoring the future) the only Oz players we would have used are George Smith and David Lyons - though we could have borrowed Paul Warwick to play for us instead of Munster given the chance.

 

[TOCC]

Australia has the most to lose by accepting a 3 way agreement where All Blacks and Springboks could play for Australian clubs but still remain eligible for there home country..

Firstly, half the Springboks would probably jump at the chance to live in Australia but still play for the Springboks, yet I doubt many Australian players would be to keen on living in Jo'burg. Likewise with the kiwis, on average, Australian players earn more then there kiwi counterparts.

Secondly, development wise, why would a Super club pick a Australian player from club rugby, when they can pick a player from. The Currie Cup or NPC instead..Australian players will be disadvantaged by lack of a third tier, therefore hurting there selection chances..

 

[barbarian]

Its a good idea but has some holes. As much as I like the idea of Aussie props heading to SA to learn the craft, in all likelihood Aussie props would be unemployed in this new structure, and the comp flooded with big biltong eating Saffa props. Who would you rather have in your front row- Greg Holmes or 125kg Titanic van du Steynfield?

I imagine the same would go for outside backs and livewire Islanders.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Titanic van du Steynfield?

Worth it just for that, BaBa. Quality.

 

[qwerty51]

I could've sworn this was allowed, well it should be!

 

[dudebudstud]

A poor example, I fear. He was released by the Tahs before his contract was up on application by Hewie who realised, correctly, that he was not going to be picked for the Wallabies, and had received a good offer from the Exiles. He was still eligible for the Wallabies according to the IRB but would always be excluded because of ARU policy

That's my point exactly. Hewat was a talent no doubt, but fell out of favour with the Wallaby selectors. Had the policy I mentioned been in place, he could have moved to another S14 team and stil been immediately eligible for the Wallabies. But moving to England would have excluded him because of ARU policy. And remaining in the S14 would still benefit Australian rugby as he would bring up the level of opposition. Also, by remaining in the S14 Hewat would have been right in front of the selectors eyes, and able to prove his worth, instead of half a world away.

The Kiwis are taking a strong line to protect their domestic comp and I agree with them. They cannot compete with the Euro clubs, especially the French ones funded by billionaires or city industries. Evans is the form flyhalf of the Premiership this season and the Blacks would have loved to have had him in 3N and on their EOTY to back up Dan The Man but it was a price they were willing to pay. Ditto Hayman.

I agree that for the most part that its difficult to compete salary wise with the French and English clubs, but I dont agree that the NPC would suffer. You would still have those players in the NPC, but instead of having to fight for placement in 5 NZ S15 teams, they can prove themselves in an Australian or SA team.

Firstly, half the Springboks would probably jump at the chance to live in Australia but still play for the Springboks, yet I doubt many Australian players would be to keen on living in Jo'burg. Likewise with the kiwis, on average, Australian players earn more then there kiwi counterparts.

Secondly, development wise, why would a Super club pick a Australian player from club rugby, when they can pick a player from. The Currie Cup or NPC instead..Australian players will be disadvantaged by lack of a third tier, therefore hurting there selection chances..

Look at Carlos Spencer, Juan Martin Hernadez, Fredric Michalak, Tony Brown. They all took a chance at playing in SA (with mixed results), but in the case of Spencer and Brown, they went for the very reason I mention. Although they were in the twilight of their careers they still had the passion to play, and if they showed some form, they may have qualified for the ABs. I know thats unlikely, but it shows that foreign players are willing to go whereever good rugby is played.

I do agree, that Australia does need an answer to the Currie Cup and NPC.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I totally agree with the concept but I don't think it would have the desired affect. As mentioned Aussie Rugger players are paid reasonably well in comparison to NZ and they generally go to Europe to cop the cash. Even if he could have gone to NZ or SA, Peter Hewat still would have taken the money in Europe. Doesn't really address the one issue that causes players from all 3 nations to go to Europe.

 

[Lee Grant]

Hey dude,

Some nice rebuttals there though I fear after reading what I wrote at 2am did not really answer what you were asking. I will excuse myself somewhat because your questions/ remarks were all over the place also.

The Kiwis have the strictest policy in regards to:

1. Super rugby - they have to play for a Kiwi team to be considered for the next AB squad.
2. NH rugby - similarly players returning have to play for a Kiwi Super or NPC team before they can be so considered.

My question to you is - why do you think they do this? I'm not asking why you think it is wrong - but why they think it is right - for them.

 

[#1 Tah]

Why would I want to exchange the humour of Fat Cat and experience and intelligence of Fuze for a saffer farmer's son?
I am not racist, but I want to point out that if you ever see an Aussie rugby player, they always are polite and top blokes, where as a South-African or Kiwi immigrant may be slightly anti-social. The only Australian rugby player to get into trouble with the law is a kiwi.

NOTE: I have never actually met ANY South African or Kiwi rugby players, but wanted to make a comment on the etiquette of the Australians

 

[cyclopath]

Why would I want to exchange the humour of Fat Cat and experience and intelligence of Fuze for a saffer farmer's son?
I am not racist, but I want to point out that if you ever see an Aussie rugby player, they always are polite and top blokes, where as a South-African or Kiwi immigrant may be slightly anti-social. The only Australian rugby player to get into trouble with the law is a kiwi.

NOTE: I have never actually met ANY South African or Kiwi rugby players, but wanted to make a comment on the etiquette of the Australians

You're on your own with this one, #1 Tah!! Comparing Aus rugby players to MIGRANTS from NZ or SA?? Hmmm, ever seen some of the behaviour of some Aus exports overseas? Drawing a very long bow, bordering on trolling.

 

[en_force_er]

Why would I want to exchange the humour of Fat Cat and experience and intelligence of Fuze for a saffer farmer's son?
I am not racist, but I want to point out that if you ever see an Aussie rugby player, they always are polite and top blokes, where as a South-African or Kiwi immigrant may be slightly anti-social. The only Australian rugby player to get into trouble with the law is a kiwi.

NOTE: I have never actually met ANY South African or Kiwi rugby players, but wanted to make a comment on the etiquette of the Australians

..... what?

 

[rugbysmartarse]

Why would I want to exchange the humour of Fat Cat and experience and intelligence of Fuze for a saffer farmer's son?
I am not racist, but I want to point out that if you ever see an Aussie rugby player, they always are polite and top blokes, where as a South-African or Kiwi immigrant may be slightly anti-social. The only Australian rugby player to get into trouble with the law is a kiwi.

NOTE: I have never actually met ANY South African or Kiwi rugby players, but wanted to make a comment on the etiquette of the Australians

What about KB (Kurtley Beale)? He's Aussier than most and still got into trouble. Or cam shep all those years ago smashing up cars at the casino?

 

[dudebudstud]

Hey dude,

Some nice rebuttals there though I fear after reading what I wrote at 2am did not really answer what you were asking. I will excuse myself somewhat because your questions/ remarks were all over the place also.

The Kiwis have the strictest policy in regards to:

1. Super rugby - they have to play for a Kiwi team to be considered for the next AB squad.
2. NH rugby - similarly players returning have to play for a Kiwi Super or NPC team before they can be so considered.

My question to you is - why do you think they do this? I'm not asking why you think it is wrong - but why they think it is right - for them.

I understand that NZ rugby wants to protect their rugby infrastructure and discourage players from running off for a bigger salary overseas, and therefore make it a requirement that if you want to be considered for the All Blacks you have to show a commitment to NZ rugby by playing in the NPC and/or a Kiwi S15 team. The lure of playing in the All Black jersey is dangled as a reward for resisting the big money of the European leagues.

I also understand that there are pay differences between Aussie, Kiwi and SA players in the S15. I would imagine if players were free to play in any S15 the level of pay would be evened out, so that all S15 players are being paid from the same payscale. This would bump up the pay for the Kiwi and SA players and sway them away from chasing money in the NH.

Overall I think my idea would improve the quality of the play in the S15 and for the trinations teams (eventhough they are already the top 3 teams in the world), provide for some pretty amazing lineups and prevent the constant player drain to the NH.

I totally agree there would be a lot of details to work out and it wouldn't be a quick system to set up.

 

[Lee Grant]

Well said - you have covered both sides of the questions well.

 

[Bullrush]

I don't think the All Black jersey should be open to players who want to play outside Super Rugby. I'd be happy for All Blacks who were playing in SA or Australia in Super rugby to be selected but outside that - no. The domestic competition in NZ could possibly be seriously ravaged.

Anyway, I'm yet to see anyone come back from the NH teams and actually be a better player. Nick Evans was an average AB before he left - not sure he would be any better now.