Jim Williams BONED

[waratahjesus]

Are you serious that quade played well?
He didnt.

The team was built around him instead of building the team and when it came to the crunch he didn't have it. It's as much about coaching as it is about him. That's for sure but the fact is for every good play he makes he makes a couple of bad decisions, they don't all cost points but they cost ball and territory and his flashes of brilliance seem to make people forget the down times. That's fine if you win. Consistently, if you dont, you need to take responsibility for the way yo played, something Quade, his management and his coaches refuse to allow to happen.

 

[Slash]

The Quade-bashing here is strangely over the top. I think if you watch the semi-final over again, you'll see how important he was to the side. Especially as a ball runner and wide defender, believe it or not. Even putting aside the composed drop goal he slotted to put us 6-11 deep into the first half, there were about half a dozen occasions when his jinking runs in broken play beat the first and second tackler and put us on the front foot. On one occasion with the All Blacks attacking in our 22 and spreading it wide, he stopped a dangerous overlap with a big tackle on Cory Jane.

He made four or five mistakes in that semi-final, none of them fatal. What I think disappointed people most was that he wasn't the "follow me" type leader that he had been for the Reds. He wasn't making match-winning plays, just very valuable team-oriented plays.

Expectations for him were too high. He played well.

Sorry Newter, I completely disagree with your first paragraph there. I know some Wallabies personally. The first mistake Cooper made was the kick off. Agree, it wasn't fatal, however it set the tone. According to the guys I have spoken too, the kick off was supposed to be deep, landing just in front of the AB's 22 with a lot of hang time to allow the Wallabies to make a tackle outside the 22 and force the AB's to make a decision in possession, kick deep and keep it in coz it couldn't go out on the full or try to run it with a blitz defence coming at them. As we all know QC (Quade Cooper), kicled short and out on the full. My Wallabies mates are still trying to work out why he attempted to kick short. Also, think to the bomb Cruden put up to Cooper about a minute prior to the first try. Cooper was out 'defending' on the right wing. The AB's won a lineout about 35m out from Wallabies line, their instinct all year would be to run it from there, instead the bomb goes 40m across field to Cooper, he was owned in the tackle and turned the ball over. A few plays and a lineout late, the AB's scored. Now cast your mind to when McCaw nailed Genia in the second half from turn over ball. AB's were in possession, we won a turn over, Genia picks the ball up and had absolutely no-one to pass it too because Cooper was still on the wing 'defending' and McCaw came from an onside position (hard to believe I know), smashed Genia and drove him back 10m and out over the sideline. Maybe not a fatal mistake as you mention, but coupled with a few incidents they all proved fatal. By your own admittance, he made 4 or 5 mistakes in the semi................how many did Cruden make? Think you'll find the difference fatal.

I am probably somewhat biased, as I am Barnes' biggest fan, but I cannot fathom why anyone would leave the most composed and skilful player getting splinters on the bench. I also cannot understand why anyone would continue to select McCabe there. McCabe to my knowledge has NEVER played 12 at Super level, so why do it in a test match? If the supporting argument is because McCabe provides the straightening of the attack after QC (Quade Cooper)'s cross field running, I also dont accept that as a viable excuse. Play Barnes at 12 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 and use AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s straight running to straighten it up. Barnes is atleast an equal defender of McCabe (with a busted shoulder) to shut down Nonu.

In the end, it is my opinion, that Deans cracked at the RWC and in the lead up to it. Let's not forget, it was Deans who ended the career of the finest running Fullback in the modern era when he was AB's Assistant Coach..........Christian Cullen. The AB's side at that 03 RWC made the similar selection and tactical errors that the Wallabies in 11 did.

Unfortunately, Williams is the scapegoat. The ARU dont need to pay him out like they would Deans. I can only hope that the scrum coach changes too and that at the very least both the Reds and Link find it within the best interests of Australian Rugby for Link to be brought into the Wallaby set up (even on a part time basis). Some tough decisions need to be made here. And personalities need to be put aside for the good of the Wallabies. I personally would like to see the coaching staff be something like Deans - Head Coach (we have to, due to contract commitments), McKenzie - Set Piece Coach, Muggleton - Defence Coach, Tim Lane - Backs Coach (or another well credentialled Backs Coach, maybe Kirwan), and perhaps someone like an Allan Gaffney or Scott Wisemantel as skills coach. Theyshould also grab the AB's kicking coach who's name escapes me but is an Australian.

 

[Slash]

Before the RWC, so many people here were trying to tell me that the Wallabies couldn't win the thing without Cooper. Now he's the reason they lost. Both of which is rubbish.

The Wallabies were always gonna be in trouble from the moment the squad was named.

Ben McCalman - useless. Should have taken Phil Waugh.
Radike Samo - old and not a lot of international experience.
Wycliff Palu - injured. Hardly played in 12 months.
Rocky Elsom - way out of form before injury. Played 60 min of Super Rugby.
Rob Simmons - no exprience.
Nathan Sharpe - best lock in Aussie but hardly got used.
James Slipper - no experience.
Salesi Ma’afu - useless but who else do you take I guess?
Tatafu Polota-Nau - coming back from injury. Not even close to fit.
Drew Mitchell - rushed back from serious injury. Was always asking for trouble.
Rob Horne - no experience. Did he play any Super Rugby?
Pat McCabe/Anthony Fainga'a - again, zero experience. Should have taken Mortlock instead of one of these guys.
Quade Cooper - should have had better advice from Deans or whoever.

Probably all for a different thread but yeah......QC (Quade Cooper) wasn't responsible for the RWC performances. Look at the coaches - Jim Williams deserved to go I think.

Think you're being a little harsh on McCalman there. It wasn't his fault he was picked as the cover for 7. He is good 8 who should be given time to play at 8 at test level.
Samo - goes missing in the tough stuff and big games.
Palu - I think they had to take him purely because Richard Brown and Steven Hoiles were injured and they couldn't think outside the square for the back up 8 to Samo. They should've picked McCalman purely as an 8 (or 6) and in my opinion taken Beau Robinson. Sure he did not go too well v Samoa, but to drop him after one test is a bit harsh. He is abrasive and certainly would've atleast competed at the breakdown better v Ireland.
Elsom - completely agree. he hasn't been the same since he came back from Leinster-at any level.
Simmons - how else would you expect to give him experience?
Sharpe - come on? Best lock in Aussie? I implore you to sit down and look at how many times he turn the ball over in possession in a match. Also, he only has 4 good scrums in him, and the front rowers constantly need to remind him to do his job at scrum time.
Slipper - same as Simmons. With Ben Robbo out, he had to be taken.
Ma'afu - same comment applies to Slipper above. Look for Dan Palmer to step up this year and make the squad.
TPN - even half fit, is a much better scrummager than Fainga'a. And that was the only reason why TPN stayed out there for the 80 v Ireland. I think they had to take him though.
Mitchell - was passed fit and the injury he got was completely different to the long term injury he sustained during the year (obviously). I think the question should be why were there so many soft tisssue tears throught the squad? Their stretching program is clearly not effective enough. At that level, players should not be sustaining hamstring, groin and calf muscles strains and tears because of running. If they get a hard knock, thats different.
Horne - made of glass
McCabe/Fainga'a - I would have taken McCabe and used him as cover for wing/fullback where he excelled for the Brumbies, and where he can show his pace. I would have also taken mortlock ahead of Fainga'a, atleast Mortlock can pass!
QC (Quade Cooper)- I have made enough comment on him!

 

[Slash]

Will Genia on the other hand....

Agree, box kicks off set piece...............dont think that was in the game plan..........or atlest I hope not. What the Wallabies did well in 3N was to attack the fringes a few times, the AB's then come up and defend in the line and Genia would then box kick into open space................that was not the case in the semi

 

[Slash]

QC (Quade Cooper) is 23 - and I think I'm right in saying was the most dangerous player in S15 this year. Barnes is 25? and spent most of the year in a darkened room... so you think Barnes should be picked ahead of Cooper for the next 10 years based on a poorly planned WC and an underwhelming post season tour?

Umm.............pretty much. Cooper is a liability at Test level. There are no hiding spots out there. However, in saying that, he would certainly offer some match winning threats off the bench with 10 to go......

Even JOC (James O'Connor) now offers a more reliable alternative at 10. I think Barnes is better at 12 than he is at 10. And when Barnes is at 12, he offers some stability to Cooper at 10 also. QC (Quade Cooper) at the moment does not know how to control a game. Dont be mistaken though, I am not a hater of QC (Quade Cooper) personally. Just the selection policy. But he does always go for the X factor play, every time, rather than control the game, play the percentages, apply pressure and exploit the weakness. Even Cruden gave QC (Quade Cooper) a rugby lesson during rwc.

And the one thing that both Barnes AND the AB's have that QC (Quade Cooper) will never have......................humility. And I am a strong believer that goes a long way also.

 

[Schadenfreude]

I know some Wallabies personally. The first mistake Cooper made was the kick off. Agree, it wasn't fatal, however it set the tone. According to the guys I have spoken too, the kick off was supposed to be deep, landing just in front of the AB's 22 with a lot of hang time to allow the Wallabies to make a tackle outside the 22 and force the AB's to make a decision in possession, kick deep and keep it in coz it couldn't go out on the full or try to run it with a blitz defence coming at them. As we all know QC (Quade Cooper), kicled short and out on the full. My Wallabies mates are still trying to work out why he attempted to kick short.

If your wallaby mates can't understand how someone can make a mistake they need to have their heads checked. If they can't deal with a mistake at the kick off and put it behind them - I'd suggest they need to find another sport.

That sort of mentality displayed right there is why you lose games.

 

[Slash]

you are entirely missing the point here. They cant understand why he completely ignored the instruction and the game plan. Next time I'll draw a picture for you.

 

[Schadenfreude]

You think he deliberately kicked it out on the full? Yeah pictures won't help you.

 

[Slash]

no i dont. But he deliberately kicked short when told to kick long. Maybe crayons will make it easier for you to comprehend.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Right so you think he had complete control over the direction of the ball ... But still kicked it out.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

no i dont. But he deliberately kicked short when told to kick long. Maybe crayons will make it easier for you to comprehend.

Your inside info goes some way to restoring my faith in Deans: the planned kick off is clearly the correct option for nearly all kick offs. The short kick off is overrated. i had assumed that the plan was a short kick and Cooper botched it (which can happen).
The question your info raises, though, is how can a bloke think that he can just change the plan on the field - he's not the captain and his piggies were no doubt all expecting something approximating a deeper kick. Thus it is an utterly selfish unfathomable effort. Assuming its true his cards would be marked for mine and he'd have to prove he'd matured enough to stick to the plan.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Right so you think he had complete control over the direction of the ball ... But still kicked it out.

Come on - it didnt go out just outside the 22

 

[Knuckles]

Right so you think he had complete control over the direction of the ball ... But still kicked it out.

thats the issue isn't it?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Just thinking a bit more about this issue: its a problem in league. The problem is that the coach gets blamed for the failings of the players.
The committee will say its easier to replace the coach than all the players.
At the time Cooper kicked that kick off I yelled at Deans through the TV set: that tells me that Cooper was clearly set up to kick short

 

[Slash]

I can assure you, the instruction was for the long kick.

 

[Gnostic]

I cannot believe the amount of unfounded and largely unthought Cooper bashing going on here.

Cooper is pretty much a front foot running 10. Yes he can kick effectively, as he showed in the Reds win over the Stormers, but he requires time and at least defensive parity from his inside backs and forwards to achieve this. Cooper is at best an average defender with poor technique. Since the game plan from Deans in every RWC game up to the Welsh 3rd place playoff was a defensive pattern with nearly all useful ball kicked why was Cooper selected over Barnes who is a tactical 10 with the occassional run? Yes Cooper played badly, but he was the wrong player to play the game plan he was given with poor support from a badly selected forward pack, and these facts were abundantly clear to everyone except Deans by the second game of the RWC.

To add a few comments to some above, Sharpe is indeed the best lock in Oz bar none. The myth of his scrummaging woes which started to a large degree at the RWC '07 never seems to effect Vickerman who was also present in RWC 07, and the lineout and scrum at RWC 11 went to shit with "saviour" Vickerman on the pitch, Sharpe largely wasn't thereand hasn't been all year yet he is the reason for the poor scrummaging? Elsom (and Vickerman I will add) did not on form deserve his place in the squad and has not in the last two years, quite a few of us voiced this decision before the first test this year and the results have supported the statement.

As for the assistant coaching positions I fervently hope that neither Foley or McKenzie have anything at all to do with the Wallabies under Deans. I say this simply because I don't think that the assistants are to blame for the results. Sure they had a hand in them but at the end of the day the tactics and selections are signed off by the Head man. Does anybody here really think that Pato Noreiga would have selected Oz's best THP this year at LH and the third or fourth best LH at THP? Maafu didn't even rate in the best scrummaging Props thread here near the end of the Super comp. The facts are that Deans has always selected a Wallaby pack that is high on workrate with the assistants then trying to plug the set piece gaps. So I hope that the Tahs and Reds coaches have nothing to do with Deans as I would hope to see them at the Wallabies in 2013 when we see the back Deans. If they do become Wallabies assistants then Nucifora is positioning himself to be the next Wallabies coach as I doubt the Wallabies will improve in terms of actual play between now and the end of Deans' contract and anybody who is associated with his tenure will be tainted by the play.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I cannot believe the amount of unfounded and largely unthought Cooper bashing going on here.

Cooper is pretty much a front foot running 10. Yes he can kick effectively, as he showed in the Reds win over the Stormers, but he requires time and at least defensive parity from his inside backs and forwards to achieve this. Cooper is at best an average defender with poor technique. Since the game plan from Deans in every RWC game up to the Welsh 3rd place playoff was a defensive pattern with nearly all useful ball kicked why was Cooper selected over Barnes who is a tactical 10 with the occassional run? Yes Cooper played badly, but he was the wrong player to play the game plan he was given with poor support from a badly selected forward pack, and these facts were abundantly clear to everyone except Deans by the second game of the RWC.

To add a few comments to some above, Sharpe is indeed the best lock in Oz bar none. The myth of his scrummaging woes which started to a large degree at the RWC '07 never seems to effect Vickerman who was also present in RWC 07, and the lineout and scrum at RWC 11 went to shit with "saviour" Vickerman on the pitch, Sharpe largely wasn't thereand hasn't been all year yet he is the reason for the poor scrummaging? Elsom (and Vickerman I will add) did not on form deserve his place in the squad and has not in the last two years, quite a few of us voiced this decision before the first test this year and the results have supported the statement.

As for the assistant coaching positions I fervently hope that neither Foley or McKenzie have anything at all to do with the Wallabies under Deans. I say this simply because I don't think that the assistants are to blame for the results. Sure they had a hand in them but at the end of the day the tactics and selections are signed off by the Head man. Does anybody here really think that Pato Noreiga would have selected Oz's best THP this year at LH and the third or fourth best LH at THP? Maafu didn't even rate in the best scrummaging Props thread here near the end of the Super comp. The facts are that Deans has always selected a Wallaby pack that is high on workrate with the assistants then trying to plug the set piece gaps. So I hope that the Tahs and Reds coaches have nothing to do with Deans as I would hope to see them at the Wallabies in 2013 when we see the back Deans. If they do become Wallabies assistants then Nucifora is positioning himself to be the next Wallabies coach as I doubt the Wallabies will improve in terms of actual play between now and the end of Deans' contract and anybody who is associated with his tenure will be tainted by the play.

If Slash's info is right, and i have no basis to doubt it, then the Cooper bashing is justified: he refused to follow a simple instruction as to how he was to start the game. IMO that's symptomatic of the way he plays.
I think there is a lot in the rest of what you say - particularly re Vickerman. He's a protected species for reasons that escape me. Elsom is past it. The Tahs will reap what they have sowed with those 2.

 

[Bullrush]

I agree with some of what you're saying Slash but not all.

QC (Quade Cooper) probably played about as good as most people outside of Australia thought he would. Why? Because he's young, inexperienced, hugely talented but far from a complete player yet. Very low percetages on winning RWC with that kind of player. His unpredictablility and balls to make risky decisions unfortunately doesn't normally go to well in the World Cup.

Agree with Gnostic on Sharpie. Who is a better lock in Aussie? Penalty magnet Vickerman? And I don't recall seeing Sharp lose the ball in the tackle at all. Maybe once?!? He's miles ahead of Simmons anyway.

For all the lack of experience in the squad, Deans should have taken Mortlock and Waugh. If for nothing other than to be the voices of experience and wisdom in a very young and very green squad. Again, I don't think McCabe/Fainga'a/McCalman brought anything to the team that these two guys couldn't have provided.....just minus the 150-odd Tests they must have between them.

And that's where I agree with you re: Deans and cutting older players eg. Cullen. I said a number of times here that this is the guy who has been publicly slated by 2 of the best ABs ever in Cullen and Umaga. There's a reason a huge number of NZ'ers were happy to see Henry stay after 2007.

The best thing that could have happened for Australian rugby in 2011, IMO, is for the Reds to have lost the Super Rugby Final and the Wallabies to have lost to South Africa and come 2nd in the Tri-Nations. I think they won competitions which meant more to them then they did their opposition with the 'big picture' being taken into account.

Finally, to say that Jim Williams was a 'scapegoat' just doesn't hold any weight. Please point to where he had the forwards consistently playing together well eg. Bledisloe decider in Brissy. I just think he's not good enough at international level yet. The same may apply for Deans but that has little to do with whether Jim is or not.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Are you saying that Cullen and Umaga said Deans was no good?

 

[Gnostic]

If Slash's info is right, and i have no basis to doubt it, then the Cooper bashing is justified: he refused to follow a simple instruction as to how he was to start the game. IMO that's symptomatic of the way he plays.
I think there is a lot in the rest of what you say - particularly re Vickerman. He's a protected species for reasons that escape me. Elsom is past it. The Tahs will reap what they have sowed with those 2.

Ever stop to think he just shanked it? It wasn't pretty off the boot. I don't agree that Cooper cannot play what the coach wants. Go and read the interviews and listen to the Podcasts with Link. Cooper is one of the most coachable players he has had. Lets look at Genia's performance as well, "why does a 9 that has one of the best running and passing games around suddenly start doing endless box kicks, even when they clearly aren't working? Genia has largely been quarantined from any real blame post RWC but his decision making was dire, if indeed it was his tactics/choices, possibly because he is a very good defender in a purely defensive game plan and mindset.