Jake White's "Back in Time" Coaches: Masterstroke or Mistake?

[I like to watch]

I wouldn't say that George played four years too long, but I do believe that he was past his best before he retired. Chris Whittaker would have been an able replacement and should have played more footy than he did. I'd split the difference and say that George should have pulled the pin in 2005. None of this should be construed as a bagging of the man, I think he was a great player for a long period of time. But by the end he looked slow and indecisive.

Time is a good healer, George was heavily criticised for a good few years before his retirement. I remember countless articles about the speed of his service. he was taking 2 steps back away from the ruck before passing etc etc.
There was great debate whether he was in fact still the best option for us,at that time.
To me he seemed that he could have played the last few years in a dinner suit as he ceased to take the line on. It was as if longevity was his primary objective.But that's human nature, we all want to stay on the ride as long as possible.
By any benchmark George was was a very good footballer and leader.

 

[hench]

Time is a good healer, George was heavily criticised for a good few years before his retirement. I remember countless articles about the speed of his service. he was taking 2 steps back away from the ruck before passing etc etc.
There was great debate whether he was in fact still the best option for us,at that time.
To me he seemed that he could have played the last few years in a dinner suit as he ceased to take the line on. It was as if longevity was his primary objective.But that's human nature, we all want to stay on the ride as long as possible.
By any benchmark George was was a very good footballer and leader.

Exactly. And it wasn't so much as "Whittaker is better then Gregan" it was more "Let's get rid of him because he's getting older".

 

[Scarfman]

Let's get our historical facts straight. The feeling was more like - what else have we got? Is Whits good enough? Cords? Let's give them a try for fuck's sake.

Greegs played more minutes than anyone else in those years.

 

[Slim 293]

Whits wasn't as good, and left after the 2006 Super 14 season anyways...

Cords was pretty good, until he got injured again...

Burgess was a promising youngster... but always injured...

 

[Ali's Choice]

I have no issue whatsover with Jake White looking to bring back legends of the franchise to coach and mentor generation next. In fact I think it is an excellent move. At their peak the Brumbies had a very successful culture, and obviously Jake White is looking to replicate this in Canberra.

The Crusaders have almost always turned to past players to fill coaching roles. And the reason is, they see this as an excellent way of maintaining the excellent culture within the organisation. And you'd have to argue that this has been a successful strategy. The Crusaders have won seven titles since 1998, and even in seasons where they haven't won titles, or have had to rebuild their roster, they have generally made the finals and remained competitive. Current or previous coaches such as Todd Blackadder, Daryl Gibson, Dave Hewett and Mark Hammett all played in successful Crusaders teams, and have helped instill this culture of success and hard work in the next generation of players.

Clearly Jake White has studied the success of the Crusaders. And he's fortunate to have a group of past palyers who did have success and did create a strong team culture in their playing days. A culture in which the team was always greater than the sum of its parts. Not all teams have this resource available to them (past players who were genuinely successful) and White would be foolish not to exploit these players to the benefit of his new team. I trust Jake White's judgement, and I think Brumbies supporters should view this move as a genuine positive for their team.

 

[Geeves]

Current or previous coaches such as Todd Blackadder, Daryl Gibson, Dave Hewett and Mark Hammett all played in successful Crusaders teams, and have helped instill this culture of success and hard work in the next generation of players.

Its an interesting point but lets look at the players mentioned using the other wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Blackadder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Gibson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hammett
Note Dave Hewett's is useless for this (technical coach)

The most important one here is Todd Blackadder's but it does apply to Daryl Gibson as well. Both left the Crusaders system (some extended time) to ply his trade somewhere else and no doubt got to see new ideas approaches and learned the trade.

The interesting thing that you point out is that Crusaders have remained highly successful. The brumbies went into a bit of a holding pattern and then well this year has been a massive decline in what is expected from them. The Crusaders have always seam to bring new talent in (either attracts or through the ranks) every year that builds the team. If there is a weakness they work on it. The Brumbies pack has not been great for a long time yet they have not fixed it. Chucky's (sorry Eddie Jones) approach to scrums were light front rows seagulling in the backline that lets face it were not great scrummages which was carried into the wallabies (sorry off track). But the point is a number of times it has appeared, from the outside, that the coach wanted to makes changes (Nuciforia) that the players rejected and the board backed them up.

Rehiring your former players doesn't always bring success nor does hiring new blood. Its about their coaching ability and what they bring to it. Its about being able to see your weaknesses and fix them. The problem a lot of people see from the outside is that the Brumbies are incapable of making that decision (Rae's outpouring confirmed it for a lot of people).

In the Crusaders case if its broken fix it and improve. The Brumbies looked to have burred their head in the sand. What no doubt annoys a lot of people is this is what QLD did for way too long. It was not until a clear break was made from what didn't work was their significant improvement.

 

[chasmac]

" Both left the Crusaders system (some extended time) to ply his trade somewhere else and no doubt got to see new ideas approaches and learned the trade. "

Do Gregan and Larkham have any significant coaching experience? Of the ex players, Kafer has had experience coaching in England. Are there any others that would have more coaching experience than these 2 former legends. BTW if the plan is to ease them back into the 22 then I definitely think masterstroke

 

[Jets]

Pat Howard did ok in the UK if I recall.

 

[PaarlBok]

Jake White did the same thing when he was appointed as Bok coach. Brought back the Bok cultures first thing and buildt his gameplan around the way we play historically.

 

[Blue]

Jake White did the same thing when he was appointed as Bok coach. Brought back the Bok cultures first thing and buildt his gameplan around the way we play historically.

Yes but there was never any doubt who was the boss.

 

[PaarlBok]

Yes but there was never any doubt who was the boss.

Pretty sure, Eddie his chom would fill him up with all the dirty detail.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Burgess was a promising youngster... but always injured...

Actually, Slim, as I remember it the careers of Gregan and Burgess didn't really overlap.

Luke Burgess was with the Brumbies for five years from 2003 to 2007 but only made two appearances in that time, not so much because of injury but more because George was the incumbent. Luke was outstanding at Shute Shield level but wasn't really noticed until he switched to the Waratahs in 2008 by which time George was off to Toulon.

 

[Zinzan]

Actually, Slim, as I remember it the careers of Gregan and Burgess didn't really overlap.

Luke Burgess was with the Brumbies for five years from 2003 to 2007 but only made two appearances in that time, not so much because of injury but more because George was the incumbent. Luke was outstanding at Shute Shield level but wasn't really noticed until he switched to the Waratahs in 2008 by which time George was off to Toulon.

I agree Burgess & Gregans careers did not overlap at all. Burgess was a academy player at the brums and only became household name playing for Melbourne Rebels ARC team and then being picked up by the waratahs after being dumped by Brumbies for Josh Holmes.

Rule changes (ELV's=short arm penalties every 2mins) in 2007 really suited him & he later went on to make Wallabies.

....sorry, back to topic, I wouldn't say Masterstroke but keep it in the family like the Tasmanians.

 

[Slim 293]

I believe Burgess was a full squad member for a few years with the Brumbies but injuries found him being behind Phibbs as Gregans backup when Henjak left...

 

[Zinzan]

I believe Burgess was a full squad member for a few years with the Brumbies but injuries found him being behind Phibbs as Gregans backup when Henjak left...

Thanks Slim

How many more posts before I become 'Senior Member' or is that a age thing?

 

[Slim 293]

Let's not forget that Burgess was in the Wallabies training squad in 2006...

 

[Red Rooster]

Link started his coaching as the coaching co-ordinator for the Brumbies in 1999 and 2000 then went on and did the same role in 2000 for the Wallabies under Macqueen and later Jones. The Brumbies made the final in 2000 and then the Wallabies won the tri nations and Bledisloe in the same year - some guys can stop playing and make the coaching gig work straight away. Pat Howard did it at Liecester as well

 

[louie]

i was interested to hear him say the brumbies have a lot of similar players. very interesting. e always used the term point of difference a lot. I already love him.

 

[Brumby Jack]

I believe Burgess was a full squad member for a few years with the Brumbies but injuries found him being behind Phibbs as Gregans backup when Henjak left...

I think you'll find there were other issues there.

 

[ChargerWA]

I have no issue whatsover with Jake White looking to bring back legends of the franchise to coach and mentor generation next. In fact I think it is an excellent move. At their peak the Brumbies had a very successful culture, and obviously Jake White is looking to replicate this in Canberra.

The Crusaders have almost always turned to past players to fill coaching roles. And the reason is, they see this as an excellent way of maintaining the excellent culture within the organisation. And you'd have to argue that this has been a successful strategy. The Crusaders have won seven titles since 1998, and even in seasons where they haven't won titles, or have had to rebuild their roster, they have generally made the finals and remained competitive. Current or previous coaches such as Todd Blackadder, Daryl Gibson, Dave Hewett and Mark Hammett all played in successful Crusaders teams, and have helped instill this culture of success and hard work in the next generation of players.

Clearly Jake White has studied the success of the Crusaders. And he's fortunate to have a group of past palyers who did have success and did create a strong team culture in their playing days. A culture in which the team was always greater than the sum of its parts. Not all teams have this resource available to them (past players who were genuinely successful) and White would be foolish not to exploit these players to the benefit of his new team. I trust Jake White's judgement, and I think Brumbies supporters should view this move as a genuine positive for their team.

The only problem with this statement, is many people don't view the Brumbies culture as "excellent". Successful, yes, excellent culture? Maybe they just had enough of the best players to succeed?

Either way, this move may be the one where in 20 years time while reading Jake Whites autobiography, he laments the fact that after successfully turning the Boks around in the midst of the supposedly most posionous political atmosphere, the Brumbies would ironically be the ones whose political atmoshpere he couldn't tame.