ISA Rugby 2012

[Heally]

Always a tough gig to select a team based on one trial and as has been noted in the past especially when one trialling team is only one school allowing combinations to work better than the mix of Div1 and Div 2 schools. The advantage is selection will lie with the team that all play and train together and hence selections are made difficult based on the fact that many of the palyers in the mixed team do not even know each other.

I suppose all will be revealed shortly but from some reports there was no real standouts from anywhere and some of those expected to be included were injured and could not trial. A single trial is not an indicator of form and these coaches have been watching pretty well all of these guys across ARU and school programs for a number of years and have seen their ability so I would predict that unless there was someone absolutely outstanding, selections will be based on past performances. Also don't foget that it is often the player who throws the final ball to put a guy in space rather than the guy who got the final pass given to him that you want to choose .. so you need to look beyond the sparkle and look at what created that sparkle.....

 

[I like to watch]

Yes the 2 dominant Schools are advantaged by trialing with their team mates.
There will be a lot of players rightly believing they did as much as the selected player in their position, it was a fairly even trial.
I will never agree that it is right that you hold selections trials, then ignore the day's performance and select on scrapbooks. Kids change dramatically between 14 and opens, they all develop at different times. A star at 14 or 16 may not keep improving to stay ahead of the curve at opens, conversely an average kid can improve dramatically in an off season to become a dominant player this year but without a scrapbook is he unworthy of selection?
Only players who played at ISA level last year should be considered if they were unfit yesterday.
Everyone agrees you should pick the player who makes the gap in front of the kid who runs into the gap, but the selectors ALWAYS pick the sparkle and only sometimes pick the creator of the sparkle. I wonder why?

 

[RugbyTears]

I have been talking up Kinross this year . Very interested to see how they hold up against Newington this weekend. Pats has attracted attention after their close loss to Trinity. One other thing worth noting is, we all know Stannies at Bathurst is always hard .... and they are at home against both Auggies & Oakhill this year.

 

[Heally]

Hi RT, I know you have your finger on the pulse across a wide range of rugby.. any feedback on the trials yesterday...

 

[Pedro]

(Green & Gold) Hey Watch, my legal team say nominated Stannies lads have every right to selection consideration even if they were only disembarking from a return flight from representing their country and school at international level. It certainly will be interesting to see the final selections. Glad to hear it was an even trial, we need a strong competition for rugby to win.
I agree with your comments regarding "Kids change dramatically between 14 and opens", however it appears you consider that doesn't happen to them if they were unfit, or are you advocating only those players be placed at a clear disadvantage ?
Rugby loses in a situation where mainly two schools have representative development opportunities. Where is the opportunity for the other schools to develop and provide needed competition for those two schools? Do we want to create a situation like South Africa were quotas were/are enforced to provide development opportunities to historically clearly disadvantaged schools ? South Africa now have a very strong home competition. This web site I provided earlier displays all their "rankings" and links forum pages discussing the enormous success of their inclusive system.
http://www.rugby15.co.za/2012/04/south-african-top-45-school-rugby-rankings-21-april-2012/
You know it makes sense.

 

[Schools Rugby Tribune]

In that (South African) ranking list, only one school in the top 10 (or two in the top 15) plays in competitions. The rest play what they "term" friendlies against traditional opponents. The overwhelming majority of the top rugby schools in South Africa follow this norm.

With the exception of Afrikaans medium schools in the former Transvaal province, formalised competitions are foreign to South African schools rugby. So determining champion schools are rather more difficult than here in Australia or New Zealand, where all schools rugby (save for pre-season trials) are played within organised competitions where premiers are determined at the end of the season, either by way of grand-finals or whichever teams tops the log.

That said, the rankings you refered to are actually pretty accurate, albeit completely subjective.

 

[Pedro]

(Green & gold) Hey Schools Rugby, good update about the SA schools and their "comp". New Zealand are the only ones who have a real decider between schools and having said that Kelston Boys High lost seven times in 2011, however they did go on to win the National top four comp. This site gives a St Kent's point of view of that 2011 comp.
http://blog.skysport.co.nz/collegerugby/who-was-really-the-best-in-2011-a-st-kents-view-point/#more-994
Australian rugby play "friendlies" a lot, there really is no national competition to win, of course, and we are behind the South Africans as we don't even have a web site listing our top 45 or 50 "rankings" like South Africa.

South Africa have players selected from 14 provincial under-16 teams which competed at the National Grant Komo tournament and
14 provincial under-18 teams which competed at the annual under-18 national Craven Week tournament.

In my opinion the ideal selection process would encompass selection criteria:

1. body composition -weight, hight, body fat %, skinfold thickness
2. 10 m and 40 m speed-An electronic sprint timer with photo-electric sensors set at a height of 1.25 m and placed at 10 m and 40 m intervals from the start line.
3. Illinois agility test-player’s ability to accelerate, decelerate and change direction
4. 1RM bench press-1RM
5. rugby ball passing accuracy- spiral ball pass for accuracy, speed and distance
6. squats with weights
7. multistage shuttle run-complete each 20 m distance (lap) and turn according to the pace determined by the
recorded sound signal.
8. tackle recording bag- records the Nm of force impacted onto the surface area.

Australia Rugby league clubs use guidelines like these to assist them identify where players need further development. eg. A prop may be strong but too slow.
Lets become very accurate and objective, with a subjective element.

 

[RugbyTears]

Hi RT, I know you have your finger on the pulse across a wide range of rugby.. any feedback on the trials yesterday...

Hi Heally, no. No news on the trials. I'm not very interested in the ISA selection for the very reason what you guys all been raving & ranting about As you guys all been saying, the constitution has to change. This is a legacy from the dark ages when it used to be easy to select an ISA team - just pick the Stannies pack and bolt the Pats backline to it. There weren't any individuals from other schools worth looking at in those days. But things are very different now - there are so many individuals across Div 1 & 2 who is worth a look in. I am not smart enough to claim to know how to fix this...

 

[Pedro]

Hi all, I think Liam Berry (All Saints) deserves a jersey ISA 1sts. He was selected as an ISA prop last year at 120kg, and he could deadlift 180kg then. He has since then spent 4 weeks at the NZ sports academy, been to the 4 day Brumbies camp, played for and scored a try for Bathurst Bulldogs colts during their 2011 winning premiership final and then his Bulldogs' coach reported in the local paper that Liam was one of his best forwards. Liam has also trimmed himself down to 109 kg to increase his mobility, and he wants to be a professional Rugby player. That's good RT, that so many individuals are worth a look in. PS I did not go to All Saints and my kids don't either.

 

[no9]

[quote="Pedro, post: 356819, member: 7383"
No Stannies players in the ISA suggestion list, yes they lost their trial matches against bigger schools, but their seconds team performed extremely well and their players have had the chance to learn a lot. I believe every ISA player should be selected on current performance. Everyone agrees its to all schools' advantage to have a strong competition, so could someone please explain to me how schools like Stannies, St Gregs, Kinros, would improve from not having ISA 1st rep experience? Through your own admissions St Augustine's and Oakhill need strong competition to stay strong, so how does denying Stannies, St Gregs and Kinros 1st ISA rep level experience achieve anything towards developing a strong ISA comp? If anything, they need the representative experience to be more capable competitors, so all ISA schools can win that one. May common sense prevail.[/quote]

My response to your question is simply that you earn a rep jersey through performance not participation. The Wallabies found that out last year with the embarrasing performance against Samoa. I'm personally tired of being treated as the poor cousins of GPS and CAS and to debunk that theory you have to consistently challenge at 1st XV level and then again at representative level. Too many times players who cannot survive the intensity of performing at that level are exposed when selected at a level they are not suitable to when the selection process is based around a circus like trials policy. Last years ISA II team was competing with the GPS II team when the bench was introduced into the game and the score ballooned from 20-12 to 52-12 in the final 15 mins because the replacements were simply not able to maintain the intensity of performance for that level.

It is also not the responsibility of the rep program to strengthen the competition, this lies with the schools. Improve your programs and quality of coaching and see if that brings better results. As an advocate for change to the selection policy the Stannislaus situation creates a noose with which the ISA convenors will hang themselves. If Stannies players are selected then it shows that these trials are indeed a waste of time and not relative to selection and any player ommitted in favour of a Stannies player has every right to question the criteria on which they were selected. How will the Stannies players be judged under the same conditions and opposition?

With regard to your call for selection based on current form I ask you which form is more reliable. Stannies are yet to win a game this year against an opponent of any worth while Augustines have beaten St Edmunds and Waverley and Oakhill have defeated Barker and Knox. Rep football requires players who can sustain high levels of consistent performance and the best way (although agreed not foolproof) to expose this is to observe them over a number of games within a team environment which is what I believe is the sensible way to get the best players representating our association not a 20 min hit out where the 'WOW" factor element are rewarded over the technically correct player doing his job.

 

[pine cone 3]

Pedro, the ISA trials were on yesterday and I believe no Stannies kids trialled.
You can't expect that a no show is selected can you?
Be interested to see the final selections.
Stonecutter, I think your wish list on selections were too optimistic.Oakhill will probably get 3 players in the pack, in the backline only your fullback stood out.
The centres and wingers selections are a lottery. The 9 is sewn up by Natoli.The 10 was shaded by the Auggies kid.
St Augs in the same boat IMO, 3 in the pack,the 2 halves then probably their strong running winger, with maybe the 12 as well.
Plenty of Oakhill & Augs players in the two's,
As usual some of the lower ranked schools brought way too many kids, making it much harder for selectors than it should be.

Only caught the last game (halves) and found it very confusing. Agree about Natoli but even he didn't "shine". I thought the Augustines no3 (socks and number in sky blue) was good. The green no7 in 2nd half (couldn't see socks, Oakhill or Greg's colour?) had 4 or 5 turnovers, and the Augustines no6 (green team) worked well together which is probably why the green team improved in the 2nd half and won on points.

 

[Runner]

"It is also not the responsibility of the rep program to strengthen the competition, this lies with the schools. Improve your programs and quality of coaching and see if that brings better results." no9 point is very relevant.
Schools can vary at times with the talent pool available but a good coach backed by a program across the age groups and supported by others happy to coach the 16c teams and the boss's support can achieve success.
If it was Pats and Stannies and now it is Auggies and Oakhill then what changed?

 

[Pedro]

Hey No9, in answer to your question "which form is more reliable". Observe last years NZ competition records. Using your selection criteria which two teams only, would you have selected to form a representative side ? St Kents, and St Bede's ? According to your choice of selection none of the Kelston boys deserved selection at this point last year, and yet they went on to win the whole NZ competition and then went on to win the Sanix World Youth Rugby Tournament. We are not talking about a 20 min hitout where the 'WOW" factor element are rewarded over the technically correct player doing his job. "Rep football requires players who can sustain high levels of consistent performance and the best way (although agreed not foolproof) to expose this is to observe them over a number of games within a team environment which is what I believe is the sensible way to get the best players." Thanks No9 I agree, your system of selection is certainly not foolproof, and here is the proof.

Top Four Schools Season Records

St Bede’s had the best season record of the four schools in the Top Four but failed to beat Wesley who had the worst and whom St Kents had beaten by 35 points earlier in the year. It could be argued therefore, that St Kent’s had the best record of any major school in the country.

School​

Played​

Won​

Lost​

Drawn​

Kelston Boys​

23​

16​

7​

0​

Wesley College​

23​

15​

8​

0​

Napier Boys​

28​

22​

5​

1​

St Bede’s College​

17​

15​

1​

1​

Augustines and Oakhill have certainly performed to top standards of Rugby as individual teams last year and to date this year. Those two school teams have been as good if not better than any team in ISA, CAS and GPS school teams. Representative rugby is not individual teams. It is hopefully the best individuals from all the teams who can adapt to various coaching styles. History shows us individuals of good performance come from unsuccessful teams. Other teams may well have two or three players better than some Oakhill and Augustines players. Two or three players don't make a team, if you think they do ask Oakhill and Augustines to run out their best three with their sixth graders against all other teams, just to prove I am wrong. If that doesn't happen, and I don't expect it will, then you prove you need all the best players available to win, and verify my point, so does ISA.

 

[Pedro]

Hey No9, is this a quote from you ?

"Rep football requires players who can sustain high levels of consistent performance and the best way (although agreed not foolproof) to expose this is to observe them over a number of games within a team environment which is what I believe is the sensible way to get the best players representating our association not a 20 min hit out where the 'WOW" factor element are rewarded over the technically correct player doing his job." ​

And is this a quote from you ?​

" As an advocate for change to the selection policy the Stannislaus situation creates a noose with which the ISA convenors will hang themselves. If Stannies players are selected then it shows that these trials are indeed a waste of time and not relative to selection and any player omitted in favour of a Stannies player has every right to question the criteria on which they were selected."​

In one quote you are saying that selection trials are just a 20 min hit out where the "Wow" factor element are rewarded, correct ?​

In another quote you are saying that selection trials are so important to attend that if you are unable to attend and are selected it creates a noose around the selectors heads, correct ?​

Lol You make some very good recommendations for selection, and I am sure that is how the selectors will operate. But how can trials be a total waist of time and at the same time be extremely important to attend ? Your quotes contradict each other.

 

[I like to watch]

To put things into perspective, one School has had more than 15 players selected each year for the past 3 years, this team has lost 1 game in this period.
They are not getting weaker, so it should be assumed that around 1/2 of those selected today will be from 1 school.
There will be a lot of angst when more than 2/3 of the 1's are from this School and to a large extent I accept there is not a lot between those selected and some that missed out.
however I believe that if the selection process was similiar to that which the CAS use, the concentration of players from the one school would be even higher.
Congrats and best of luck to all those selected.

 

[Pedro]

Hey Watch very well put and I entirely agree. You point out they have, are and will, gain 1/2 - 2/3 of ISA team so prevent students from other schools from gaining ISA rep honours.
Their track record surpasses any of the top ten NZ teams, refer to my previous post, and they outperform the top ten South African teams as Schools Rugby Tribunal pointed out, only one plays in a competition.
That team has already achieved what I previously claimed, strength through representative selection and coaching programs. Now, an obvious necessity for rugby and that school 1st team. Their 1st XV team to be removed from ISA, play against the top teams from NSW, Queensland, NZ and South Africa. As pointed out by numerous people, they are too strong for almost all Canberra and NSW teams and they are getting stronger. Their seconds team and all their other teams to remain in ISA so their seconds team play as ISA firsts in ISA competition, all their open teams move up a grade.
None of the top 10 NZ teams have consistently won like this team.
Contest South African teams, as the fifteenth "provincial" under-18 teams competing at the annual under-18 national Craven Week tournament.
Student's return tickets between Aust. and South Africa are far less than adult's fares.
You will find Africaans on how to say "better luck next time mate" on you tube. lol
This team then stands to gain more well deserved Australian rep honours.
Everybody in ISA wins. More Australian jerseys for this school, their 1st XV up for selection into the NSW 1s or 2nd team, and more ISA rep jerseys for other ISA schools, and still some for this school seconds/1st ISA team. Australia and Australia A teams stand to gain many players with international playing experience.

 

[Footy]

Does anyone know when the could announce the ISA Team ?

 

[Footy]

Does anyone know when they will make an Announcement on the ISA Team ???

 

[crofty]

Does anyone know when they will make an Announcement on the ISA Team ???

Word is 9 from Oakhill and 17 from Augustines in a 36 man squad - but TBC.

 

[Schools Rugby Tribune]

Unfortunately I heard too late about Uruguyan school "The British School" stopping over at St Pats for a game en-route to Uruguay, ex Japan on Wednesday. I'd have attended otherwise!

They did pretty good at the Sanix, just wondered if anyone attended the game or has the result.