iRB Meeting to Determine ELVs' fate

[cyclopath]

My take on it is that pretty soon we'll all be back to bitching about the fact that the biggest problem is the unwillingness of referees to adequately police the breakdowns, mauls will be truck and trailer obstructions, and more penalty goals will be on offer.
Unlike the Chicken Littles of the world would have us think, mauls didn't die, they adapted, scrums didn't fade to obscurity as some marginalised byplay, they remain a pillar of the game, and lineouts worked just fine without some accountant checking the numbers.
The whole thing has become a farce of the highest order, and I totally agree with mark_s about the colossal waste of time and money involved.
Some people ought to remove the rose-coloured glasses and realise change is not necessarily inherently bad. I didn't like all the ELVs by any stretch, but strongly believe they should have been trialled properly as a set, not in the ad hoc way we saw, so at least all the parties could have made an informed judgement rather than adopting pre-conceived ideas about what will or won't work.

 

[Scotty]

It makes you wonder at the qualifications of some of the people that are meant to be running this game.

 

[Pfitzy]

Agree cyclo - without some of the ELVs working together, their full effect is diluted. We saw that when comparing the MARC with other rugby where the watery versions were trialled. e.g. they allowed pulling down the maul but didn't drop the truck n trailer obstruction :

Actually, there is an ELV I don't like, the one where the halfback can disrupt the no.8 at the back of the scrum as soon as he goes to touch the ball - that shits me as I think it takes away the benefit of a dominant scrum.

That was merely a redefinition of the offside line at the back of the scrum I think - oppo halfback has to stay with both feet on his side of the ball. It didn't change the fact that he could grab the #8 as soon as the ball was out - which technically is as soon as the #8 takes either of his shoulders off the scrum.

 

[Thomond78]

It looks like it was all a complete waste of time. What a f*king joke. Some of the rugby adminstrators clearly have their heads way too far up their own arses.

Cue Thommo coming on to blame John O'Neill. Of course it is his fault. How could it possbily be the fault of any of the northern unions?

Well, pet, before you throw toys, you might like to know that the IRFU, WRU and RFU asked their players, refs and fans what they thought. And we hated the ones that got binned.

Now, strange to say, but asking the people who play, ref and watch the game what you should do isn't the administrators pulling a fast one; it's democracy. Why the NH unions should ignore what their own members have told them to do in order to keep some - not all, note - SH unions happy is beyond me; frankly, that would be the NH administrators in question pulling a fast one, on the very people they're supposed to serve.

 

[Scarfman]

Many of us are annoyed that the NH nations were obstructionist, and dimissed some things without even trialling them.

I'm very disappointed that the iRB were unable to do what they said they would do. Hence, questions about their competence.

Anyway, as I said, I feel that the ELV has contributed to widening the gap between the SH and the NH so I'm not too concerned. In general, I don't believe that the ELVs made the game simpler to understand or referee.

 

[PhucNgo]

Many of us are annoyed that the NH nations were obstructionist, and dimissed some things without even trialling them.

I'm very disappointed that the iRB were unable to do what they said they would do. Hence, questions about their competence.

Anyway, as I said, I feel that the ELV has contributed to widening the gap between the SH and the NH so I'm not too concerned. In general, I don't believe that the ELVs made the game simpler to understand or referee.

Is that something like the second IV IRA?

 

[cyclopath]

It looks like it was all a complete waste of time. What a f*king joke. Some of the rugby adminstrators clearly have their heads way too far up their own arses.

Cue Thommo coming on to blame John O'Neill. Of course it is his fault. How could it possbily be the fault of any of the northern unions?

Well, pet, before you throw toys, you might like to know that the IRFU, WRU and RFU asked their players, refs and fans what they thought. And we hated the ones that got binned.

Now, strange to say, but asking the people who play, ref and watch the game what you should do isn't the administrators pulling a fast one; it's democracy. Why the NH unions should ignore what their own members have told them to do in order to keep some - not all, note - SH unions happy is beyond me; frankly, that would be the NH administrators in question pulling a fast one, on the very people they're supposed to serve.

You've missed his point I think.
The waste of time, and the main sticking point most of us down here have is that they WEREN'T TRIALLED properly, hence the decisions made by some were based on limited exposure to the ELVs or to trials involving a token number of them. If I remember correctly, the original "plan" involved the ELVs as a set. That your unions choose to reject them is of course democratic. Nobody is arguing otherwise. They polled players and coaches down here too and a majority liked them.
It seems to me much of the objections from northern unions involved a fair bit of contempt that a jumped up Australian had a lot to say about them. Heaven forbid the colonials being vocal! It reeked to me of condescension.
The process used to arrive at the final point was quite different in the NH to the SH.
The fact that the whole process has been a waste of time is the real disgrace.

 

[PhucNgo]

It looks like it was all a complete waste of time. What a f*king joke. Some of the rugby adminstrators clearly have their heads way too far up their own arses.

Cue Thommo coming on to blame John O'Neill. Of course it is his fault. How could it possbily be the fault of any of the northern unions?

Well, pet, before you throw toys, you might like to know that the IRFU, WR (World Rugby)FU and RFU asked their players, refs and fans what they thought. And we hated the ones that got binned.

Now, strange to say, but asking the people who play, ref and watch the game what you should do isn't the administrators pulling a fast one; it's democracy. Why the NH unions should ignore what their own members have told them to do in order to keep some - not all, note - SH unions happy is beyond me; frankly, that would be the NH administrators in question pulling a fast one, on the very people they're supposed to serve.

Probably says it all really.

So Thommo, are you actually admitting that folks up north watch S14? Because it seems to me that that's the only way they would have seen the sanctions ELV in action enough to "hate" it.

Frankly, if it goes back to the old divide and conquer by 3 stodge, I'll have to seriously consider my options. But having said that, if the referees can clean up the breakdown without regular massive penalty counts, then the game will be better off.

 

[PaarlBok]

Must say I am a bit in the middle here but am pretty glad they bin the pulling down maul one. That one was just plain stupid, so thanks NH folks or whoever.

The U19 one they want to bring in is also stupid. Vrekken hell, how will they kids know to scrum properly.?

 

[Thomond78]

It looks like it was all a complete waste of time. What a f*king joke. Some of the rugby adminstrators clearly have their heads way too far up their own arses.

Cue Thommo coming on to blame John O'Neill. Of course it is his fault. How could it possbily be the fault of any of the northern unions?

Well, pet, before you throw toys, you might like to know that the IRFU, WR (World Rugby)FU and RFU asked their players, refs and fans what they thought. And we hated the ones that got binned.

Now, strange to say, but asking the people who play, ref and watch the game what you should do isn't the administrators pulling a fast one; it's democracy. Why the NH unions should ignore what their own members have told them to do in order to keep some - not all, note - SH unions happy is beyond me; frankly, that would be the NH administrators in question pulling a fast one, on the very people they're supposed to serve.

Probably says it all really.

So Thommo, are you actually admitting that folks up north watch S14? Because it seems to me that that's the only way they would have seen the sanctions ELV in action enough to "hate" it.

Frankly, if it goes back to the old divide and conquer by 3 stodge, I'll have to seriously consider my options. But having said that, if the referees can clean up the breakdown without regular massive penalty counts, then the game will be better off.

Global ELVs, Phuc. The 13 that got trialled world-wide. And, let's not forget, there's more than just the home nations in this; the French voted against the SH 16, and the Italians, and the Argentinians, and others. Simply; the rest of the world looked at the S14, and decided they didn't want them. It's not some NH conspiracy, unless Argentina has suddenly drifted 10,000 km north. It's that the rest of the world disagreed with you, and voted that way.

And let's be clear, only three countries in the entire world played the "SH" - should be SANZAR - ELVs. Everyone else played the same ones, and came to the same conclusions. You might also remember that the Bokke tried to break ranks on this one, too, as far as this year's S14 went, so I doubt if they were huge fans either.

The real key to this, however, lay elsewhere. The refs up here listened to the IRB protocol on going off your feet, and have blown the buggery out of it. Net result, people have ben staying on your feet. More turn-overs, occasional outbreaks of classic rucking (there was on for Munster against Montauban in the last round where four Munster players bound on, blitzed over a tackle upright and turned over lightning fast ball for us. It was beautiful). We've seen that, and we like it (the French have been pulling the piss on it, and have suffered accordingly). However, we haven't seen that in the SH, or from the SH refs who've been up here reffing of late. We've seen a way to sort out the breakdown without reducing the penalty for cynical play, which you'd all agree hasn't been properly enforced in the SH. Hence, we saw no need to change the laws to get the desired end, and a major downside if we did.

The good thing about all of this is that the NH is now, absolutely, convinced that old-fashioned rucking is the solution to the problem. Everyone agrees we want it back. If you want to get classic rucking back, all you have to do is ask; you're pushing an open door, if we haven't already opened it first.

 

[PaarlBok]

Ag Thomo we'll play any way as long as we can play rugby. Myself like the S14 rules specially for the school kids. The short arm one was a good one for running rugby. We saw last year during the CC as soon as they change it back to long arms at rucks it felt like the old rules again and then we went up north and the refs killed us a bit there. Sure we'll getting use to whatever rules . I just hate the pulling down maul, always thought its a basic part for rugby and a rugby skill, mauling from line outs. That took away the Brutes and Cheetahs main weapon. They love mauling.

 

[Thomond78]

Ag Thomo we'll play any way as long as we can play rugby. Myself like the S14 rules specially for the school kids. The short arm one was a good one for running rugby. We saw last year during the CC as soon as they change it back to long arms at rucks it felt like the old rules again and then we went up north and the refs killed us a bit there. Sure we'll getting use to whatever rules . I just hate the pulling down maul, always thought its a basic part for rugby and a rugby skill, mauling from line outs. That took away the Brutes and Cheetahs main weapon. They love mauling.

Mauling should never have been touched. It was a stupid, unnecessary, dangerous change, that did more to turn people here against the project than anything else.

 

[fatprop]

I expect a referee's ruling that requires a much harder maul interpretation very very soon. Less stuffing around, less time stationary before using will be required. So teams won't be able to have little rests and restarts.

They did the same at the breakdown with the increased requirement for players to stay on their feet when the ELVs started to be cut back.

 

[Pfitzy]

Mauling should never have been touched. It was a stupid, unnecessary, dangerous change, that did more to turn people here against the project than anything else.

I agree - the traditional version of the maul that existed in the mid-90s where you didn't get a 5 second fart-arse around shouldn't have been touched.

Its still disappointing that no-one put all of the ELVs on show at the top level. How can you honestly expect an experiment to work if you exclude key elements?

 

[cyclopath]

Mauling should never have been touched. It was a stupid, unnecessary, dangerous change, that did more to turn people here against the project than anything else.

I agree - the traditional version of the maul that existed in the mid-90s where you didn't get a 5 second fart-arse around shouldn't have been touched.

Its still disappointing that no-one put all of the ELVs on show at the top level. How can you honestly expect an experiment to work if you exclude key elements?

Who expected it to work?

 

[mark_s]

If you want to get classic rucking back, all you have to do is ask; you're pushing an open door, if we haven't already opened it first.

Please sir, can I have some more? How would you like us to ask- on hands and knees with heads bowed?

Thomond, this one sentence from you epitomises why the ELVs were doomed to failure.

(PS - Please bring back rucking)

 

[formeropenside]

Rucking, yes please. Who do we ask? Start a petition perhaps?

 

[Scarfman]

Global ELVs, Phuc.

Is that like the baseball World Series?

The good thing about all of this is that the NH is now, absolutely, convinced that old-fashioned rucking is the solution to the problem. Everyone agrees we want it back. If you want to get classic rucking back, all you have to do is ask; you're pushing an open door, if we haven't already opened it first.

Rugby will never bring back rucking officially. All it could do is soften the anti-rucking law interpretation, which, I agree would be a good thing.

 

[Scotty]

It seems to me much of the objections from northern unions involved a fair bit of contempt that a jumped up Australian had a lot to say about them. Heaven forbid the colonials being vocal! It reeked to me of condescension.

Condescending!? No, surely not?

Well, pet, before you throw toys, you might like to know that the IRFU, WRU and RFU asked their players, refs and fans what they thought.

Thommo is doing is best though...

 

[PaarlBok]

They had Andre Watson on our radio this morning about this. According to him SA join the NH in this recommendations 100%. If everything goes well they will be implemented 1 August 2010. SA will carry on with the Vodacom Cup like the NH and the Lions series obvious. They will implement this new ones here hopefully with the CC starting round about July this year already.