Cyclo, I wasn't really meaning you and Sully were ref bashing as in case of many times I have seen here or other rugby or any sports forums. I do think we (myself included) tend to see refs as inconsistent when we see them dealing with teams we interested in, and don't really look at position of bodies/players in relation to refs when they do or do not make decisions. And as for what goes on in scrums, no one will convince me we see better or more than ref when he does or does not make decisions. It great for us on tv to watch at blown up and slowed down replays to see how wrong the ref is, but anyway I realised I setting myself up as a ref defender, and not what I really trying to do. Would also add as I had said in another post, was interested to hear a couple of refs (Jackson and Pollock) actually explaining why they do make some of the decisions that they do on NZ tv programme. More or less said if you want us to blow up everything in a game, you won't watch much rugby!