How does this help Australian Rugby.

[disco]

Eh. Just the usual ADHD supporter mentality. "Play the kids" is just the same as "Spin it Wide (at every opportunity)" and "Go for tries!". Everything has to happen NOW! and be dramatic. Good things take time.

Don't read half the story & start throwing out comments like "the usual ADHD supporter mentality".

I've been saying it doesn't happen overnight all along I want the Aussie teams to spend more time on developing young Aussie players & set them long term goals & plans rather than just shipping them on after one or two seasons and having older foreign imports taking their place.

 

[Waylon]

The Rebels are in their second season in a rugby foreign AFL heartland

There is an element of pressure to be instantly successful and the imports help them be competitive from day dot whilst they develop their business, junior syystems, marketing and youth players. They can hardly run out a team of schoolboys in super rugby.

The Force had the same position but didn't have the luxury of so many foreign imports.

With time, both these franchises will develop home grown wallabies and also provide opportunity for talent overspill for Reds/Tahs/Brumbies excess

The game is also now more national

Fantastic

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

He's still going!

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Waylon, Arthur and Jimmy have nailed it. I was going to wade in on this debate, as I have done before, but I don't think there's any need. With the additional franchises in the last five or so years there has never been a better pathway for young talent to come through and come through they have. Teams also need to win to maintain the interest of sponsors and fans, so getting the occasional overseas star is not a bad thing IMHO. I'm happy with the stance the ARU has taken here.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Don't read half the story & start throwing out comments like "the usual ADHD supporter mentality".

I've been saying it doesn't happen overnight all along I want the Aussie teams to spend more time on developing young Aussie players & set them long term goals & plans rather than just shipping them on after one or two seasons and having older foreign imports taking their place.

"shipping them on" - players move on from teams for all sorts of reasons, money, 'more' opportunities, overseas experience, plus some players are viewed as not the right fit. I can't see any of the examples or players you listed that provides clear evidence that someone was wrongfully shipped on because of a foreigner.

Just on the more up and comers and youngsters, my personal view is that it's not the greatest thing in the world that youngsters just be 'developed' in super rugby because that's what should happen. I was never a fan of young players in NZ playing next to no provinvial rugby and getting a super contract to essentially learn their trade with the big boys. Sure some can hold their own, but for the majority they get found wanting. And that is why a team like the Force have had the sort of player churn they've had. Youngsters who were not up to it and due to the commercial nature of super rugby were dropped after ample opportunities.

I can see Lee reading my post now saying those immortal words - Bring back the MARC....

 

[Bardon]

Agree that it's important to have a balance between development and being competitive.

For years here in Ireland Connacht was seen as the development province which actually meant they were given a mix of young players and older players not wanted by the other provinces. Now they are becoming more competitive and have some players knocking on the door for the national team.

I'm sure anyone associated with the Rebels or the Force want to become more competitive with the Tahs, Reds and Brumbies. If they're solely focused on development they'll just be seen as feeder teams to the other 3.

The rules on foreign players means that there are plenty of places for Australian talent in both franchises and a sprinkling of foreign talent should drive the Oz players to improve. If the Oz players are good enough they should get a spot in the squad.

Here in Ireland from next year the rules change on foreign players. Between the 4 provincial teams there will only be allowed to be one foreign player per postion. This is designed to increase depth in areas such as the front row, the current lack of which was exposed against England.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

I can't stay away....
the bottom line is that, Rebels aside, the limit is what...one non-qualifying foreigner?

Can't fathom how this is an issue at all.

The rebels were allowed more to make them more competitive in their first few years given the lack of depth in Australia....this was agreed by Rebels management and staff as well as the ARU...why? because of the lack of depth of super 15 calibre players in Australia.

There's no chance the rebels would have been better off with the various battlers you've mentioned instead of Delve, Lipman, Robinson and Sommerville. You're argument is patently absurd and goes against all the facts.

Then you go on to complain that the force delisted youngsters (who weren't good enough) in order to play Matt Giteau. so what exactly is your problem? foreigners? foreigners who can't qualify? or the force not signing players you think they should to sign a player you don't like?

End discussion

 

[SuperGrover]

Here in Ireland from next year the rules change on foreign players. Between the 4 provincial teams there will only be allowed to be one foreign player per postion. This is designed to increase depth in areas such as the front row, the current lack of which was exposed against England.

Being pedantic, and drifting off topic, but the incoming changes regarding foreign players in Ireland does not include Connacht. They have an exemption due to some arrangement with the IRFU.

To digress even further, the changes that apply to Ulster, Leinster and Munster seem close to unworkable.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Being pedantic, and drifting off topic, but the incoming changes regarding foreign players in Ireland does not include Connacht. They have an exemption due to some arrangement with the IRFU.

To digress even further, the changes that apply to Ulster, Leinster and Munster seem close to unworkable.

Are you saying Connacht gets more foreign players? Because that would make sense given Connacht is in a development stage compared to the other provinces (someone who follows Irish Rugby closely correct me if I'm wrong). I believe eastwoods Tim Donnelly was playing at Connacht & I'm sure thats where I read a story that mentioned Connacht had different rules in regards to players due to its development stage. A bit like the Rebels situation.

 

[Bardon]

Yes SuperGrover is correct Connacht, for the moment and at least a few more years, have different rules to the other 3 provinces.

In Connacht there's a move to change it from being a development province which in principle meant giving young talent a go earlier than they would at the other 3 provinces. But in reality meant it was the graveyard players went to when they couldn't make it at the other 3 provinces.

Now they're focusing on becoming more competitive and not proping up the Pro12 every year like they used to. They aquited themselves well in their first HEC campaign this year and have shown signs of improvement year on year over the last 3-4 years.

Allowing them to have more foreign players I think is a good thing as it means they can continue to be more competitive and it means that Irish players who make the starting team are, generally, of a higher grade and more likely to be in consideration for the national squad. They still have a lot of work to do before there will be Connacht players regularly in the national squad but they are moving in the right direction.

I would see a similar path of development for the Rebels working well. Denying them the services of a few extra foreign players would be detrimental to that development. Most of the best talent has already been cherry picked by the more established Aus franchises. Forcing them to pick players who are not up to S15 level, just because they are Australian, is not going to make them more competitive.

However neither do you want them to become a mercenary franchise that is dominated by foreign players. I think for their current stage of development the balance is about right and would expect that once they become competitive on a more regular basis that they'll fall under the same rules as the established franchises.

 

[Cave Dweller]

We have 100,000 players, half of whom are under 15. The number of over-15 players in Argentina has increased by 20% since 2007.

 

[Bardon]

Cave Dweller that raises a question that may need it's own thread, which is, how will S15 be affected by Argentina's participation in the rugby championship. With a lot of Argentina's players playing in Europe, over time there may be a push for these players to move back to the SHs. Taking into account the restrictions on foreign players in the established S15 teams there may be a push in the coming years to have Argentine teams in super rugby. Exciting times to be an Argentine rugby fan.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

I think that Super Rugby teams should first start to do pre-season tours of argentina and build some local knowledge of the competition and a bit of a fan base.

before committing to super teams in Argentina...which is a big commitment...they should change the restrictions on foreigners to allow for up to say two spots on each team to be filled by an argentinian that a) doesnt count towards the foreign player quota (disco spontaneously combusts) and b) possibly doesn't contribute to the salary cap for a finite number of seasons.
That would enable up to 30 argentines to play in the super 15 without taking into account the fact the marquee positions in Australia and New ZEaland could still be filled by argies.

this prevents the expensive process of setting up a super 15 team in argentina, what conference to put them in and don't forget the ridiculous amount of travel it would entail. south african teams would literally be doing an around the world flight.

actually...all teams would probably be best off going on round the world tours for their away games.

Once they build up a base in argentina and a bit of a following they can then sell the super 15 tv rights for a bit of cash over there.

 

[Bullrush]

I would open thing up a lot more.

I would say that you can have as many foreigners as you like. And I would also say that you are eligible for the Wallabies if you are playing in a provincial competition that includes the ARU eg. Super 15.

This gives players more opportunities to play and develop professionally - if they are good enough. If they aren't then you simply can't help that.

 

[No4918]

I would open thing up a lot more.

I would say that you can have as many foreigners as you like. And I would also say that you are eligible for the Wallabies if you are playing in a provincial competition that includes the ARU eg. Super 15.

This gives players more opportunities to play and develop professionally - if they are good enough. If they aren't then you simply can't help that.

Good idea in theory and i think the game will head this way (not for a few years yet mind) but it has the potential to to hamper the development in Aus as we just don't have the depth. Could see many fringe S15 players from SA and NZ coming here for there shot.

Maybe take it to 4-5 foreign players and after 4 years of living and playing in that country you become eligible to be selected at test lest level. Make it 6 years if you have previously played Tests for a different country. In the long run i think things will need to open up like this between the SANZAR countries, it could attract more money and strengthen ties resulting in less competition from Europe. Imagine if a player like Matfield could go to the Brums rather than Europe at the twilight of his career?

PS: this has been very poorly thought out so poke holes as you see fit.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Cave Dweller that raises a question that may need it's own thread, which is, how will S15 be affected by Argentina's participation in the rugby championship. With a lot of Argentina's players playing in Europe, over time there may be a push for these players to move back to the SHs. Taking into account the restrictions on foreign players in the established S15 teams there may be a push in the coming years to have Argentine teams in super rugby. Exciting times to be an Argentine rugby fan.

I gave that statistic to show the time it takes for depth to materialize. In 4 years the players over 15 increased by 20 percent. So our depth has increased by 20 percent in 4 years. But then more sorting got to be done and take the potentials from the not good enough and you will be left with a number between 5 to 7 percent. So our depth has increased by roughly 5 percent in 4 years and if you take it to senior level that is about 1 to 3 percent old enough to sit on a bench of a senior club team. So my point is Australia can work out the same way of how many players above xxx age they have to what they had prior to the extra franchises to see if the depth has increased by a big rate or marginally.

I think Australia are use to fast development and implementing something with quick results and are highly successful with it that is why they are so successful in many of the sports. But if the sport is not your no. 1 sport or is sharing the pie with other sports you have to be patient as it will take more than 4 years. It will take around 8 to 10 years to see that number grow. But the problem when you have a big pool of player depth is that you do not look at your players like you use to. Now you can nurture the few that you have and look after them. Once you got a big pool you start losing players and discard players with the notion we got back up or there is more than enough let him go rather than look at all of them with the same care as when you did have handful

 

[fatprop]

So losing Tom Hocking for Toby Lynn is a good thing for Australian Rugby? I don't care if they are Kiwi, Saffa, Fijian or Poms no foreign player should replace an Aussie & the ARU need to stop it.

It was a good thing for the Force, Hocking was released, they decided Lynn was a better option.

The assumption that there are all these quality units that can be found or we should just be uncompetitive and stick with Aussies is just silly.

Aus rugby was still struggling to supply enough quality players for the Force when the Rebels were created FFS.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

I would open thing up a lot more.

I would say that you can have as many foreigners as you like. And I would also say that you are eligible for the Wallabies if you are playing in a provincial competition that includes the ARU eg. Super 15.

This gives players more opportunities to play and develop professionally - if they are good enough. If they aren't then you simply can't help that.

Don't know if I'd go as far as unlimited foreigners but I'd certainly have an increase in the current number allowed & I believe Aussie players should be able to play for non-aussie franchises & still be able to be selected for the Wallabies, as long as its Superugby.

 

[Slim 293]

Don't know if I'd go as far as unlimited foreigners but I'd certainly have an increase in the current number allowed & I believe Aussie players should be able to play for non-aussie franchises & still be able to be selected for the Wallabies, as long as its Superugby.

I think that would be an interesting scenario.

Certainly, some of our players could benefit from being involved in some of the setups over in New Zealand and South Africa, and I'm sure they'd feel the same way.

At the same time all these players are still playing in the same competition so it's not like it's difficult to monitor their form, and there's no compromise with the test window like if they were up north.