How does this help Australian Rugby.

[Braveheart81]

You are focusing on one individual player.

I completely disagree that the ARU should ban the Aussie teams from having foreign players. It is part of the competition.

Strong, successful Australian Super Rugby franchises is what will benefit Australian rugby the most in the long run, not sacrificing experience for youth or disallowing teams from following the rules and signing up to two international players.

 

[disco]

don't understand how they are "lost"
have they quit rugby? have they signed on to play for wales?

they aren't good enough at the moment evidently. they can play club rugby and improve their game, they can go overseas and improve their game and return.

they evidently aren't good enough to play super rugby. if they aren't good enough to play super rugby they aren't going to play for the wallabies so if they head elsewhere for a few years to improve and get game time...everyones a winner.

the aru can't fund every single wallaby hopeful and the clubs can't afford to bankrol every single wallaby hopeful.

Did you see Hockings play for the Force? Have you seen Toby Lynn play?

I'm pretty sure that Lynn would be on the same amount or more money than Hockings. So it's not about money & rarely do players go overseas & come back better than when they left.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Strong, successful Australian Super Rugby franchises is what will benefit Australian rugby the most in the long run, not sacrificing experience for youth or disallowing teams from following the rules and signing up to two international players.

This

 

[disco]

You are focusing on one individual player.

I completely disagree that the ARU should ban the Aussie teams from having foreign players. It is part of the competition.

Strong, successful Australian Super Rugby franchises is what will benefit Australian rugby the most in the long run, not sacrificing experience for youth or disallowing teams from following the rules and signing up to two international players.

No I'm not read the original post. I'm using Hockings as a prime example.

Well why not bring back more Aussies.

I was sitting in the stands 5 years ago watching the Qld Reds getting flogged week in week out a lot of those young players are still running around today handing out the floggings.

Serious question for anyone that wants to answer. How many years would have Quade Cooper lasted at the Waratahs or Force judged purely on his 1st three seasons of super rugby?

 

[wamberal]

Totally agree with Braveheart. Supporters, sponsors, viewers watch the game, they are not counting national identities, particularly.


The most popular Waratah since professionalism would probably be a Fijian who came from the NRL.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Awhile. for all his numerous errors, he was extremely young and his immense talent was obvious. only a moron or the all blacks would not have chased him.

all backs didn't because they were clealry well aware of Barrett, Anscombe and Cruden.

I have a sneaky feeling that we are going to disagree on this all day long. particularly given the fact I believe the quota for foreign players should be increased in Australia and the fact I think that an increase will further benefit australian rugby.

no comment re the fantastic rise of welsh and irish rugby inspite of their foreigners

oddly the scottish teams have less foreigners in them and the scots are woeful.

 

[Braveheart81]

That is a hypothetical question. The Force have always struggled for a good 10. I'm sure Quade Cooperwould still be their star player.

You talk about the Reds, but they too have used the marquee signings. They had Daniel Braid for a season or two.

The Force have developed David Pocock and James O'Connor into two of the Wallabies best players. How can you say they aren't doing anything to develop young players?

 

[No4918]

Disco, as a Reds supporter how did you feel about Braid? Personally feel he offered a hell of a lot to the side and those young guys that got thrashed by the Bulls and from what i've heard they learnt a lot from his professional attitude on and off the field.

 

[disco]

Well definitely JOC (James O'Connor) but Pocock would be brilliant where ever he landed. Yeah Braid was good for the Reds when Croft departed but McKenzie never felt the need to replace him with a foreign player when his time was up.

The Force should have done so much better with the group of young players they had over there John Mitchell really fucked things up.

Other than the national teams I don't watch Welsh or Irish Rugby so I can't comment on what they are doing. How many teams are in Ireland & Wales by the way? If it's more than 5 then I completely understand as they have such small populations.

 

[disco]

Disco, as a Reds supporter how did you feel about Braid? Personally feel he offered a hell of a lot to the side and those young guys that got thrashed by the Bulls and from what i've heard they learnt a lot from his professional attitude on and off the field.

Yeah he was good, the best thing was he was actually GOOD unlike a lot of the foreign players who are filling the rosters.

 

[Braveheart81]

Well definitely JOC (James O'Connor) but Pocock would be brilliant where ever he landed.

You could say the same thing about Genia and Cooper. Talented players are going to do well wherever they are.

 

[SuperGrover]

You haven't once mentioned my example of Tom Hocking & Toby Lynn at the Western Force. We've actually lost a good young Aussie for an over the hill shit Kiwi.

I think we've lost a player eligible for Australia for another player eligible for Australia. This was a contractual decision made by the Force, so I assume someone over there thinks that Lynn is the better player. Whether or not this is the right decision the last thing I want to see is more involvement from the ARU on who the Force can and can't contract.

I don't decide what the Rebels should do with anyone but they were given the 5th Aussie Super Rugby club with the responsibility of developing future Wallabies & Ged Robinson & Adam Freier aren't that.

Maybe Ged Robinson and Adam Freier aren't the future Wallabies that you want, but the Force and Rebels cannot be viewed in isolation when considering their capacity to build depth for Australia. Take Freier, while he may not have much chance of playing for the Wallabies again, his move to the Rebels allowed for Fitzpatrick at the Tahs to gain more opportunities. Previously, Freier would have been lost to Aus rugby entirely for this to happen.

You only have to look at Hugh Pyle & Nick Phipps to realise that these blokes will get better with time.

You only need to look at Hugh Pyle and Nick Phipps to realise that the Rebels are providing a pathway for young Australian talent to get noticed on the Super Rugby stage.

The Rebels & the Force don't seem to understand that & they're set for some long term pain without gain unless they start to identify & develop good Aussie talent.

The Rebels specifically have already provided an avenue to Super Rugby for players such as Rodzilla and Mitchell and the opportunity for players like Saffy and Vuna to switch back to Rugby. All these players are, I would think, within the definition of 'good Aussie talent'.

The Rebels can not, however, be expected to put out 15 youngsters on the field at once (especially for a new team in a new market that is trying to build a culture and supporter base, its unrealistic). Perhaps the short term pain is the use of foreign players such as those you mention for the long term gain of developing Wallabies.

 

[disco]

You could say the same thing about Genia and Cooper. Talented players are going to do well wherever they are.

Pocock didn't need the time & pampering the others needed he was ready to go age 17. Even Eddie couldn't break him.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes, but he got an opportunity at The Force.

He wouldn't have had the same opportunity at any other franchise so quickly.

 

[Waylon]

Just looking at the Force & Rebels squad & how they have average Kiwis taking the position of an up & coming Aussie.

For example the Western Force have released Tom Hocking for Toby Lynn how the fuck does that help Australian Rugby.
Hocking was probably one of the best players @ the Force in 2008 & now he's gone.

Ben Whittaker is Warming the bench at the Western Force while Ged Robinson & Adam Freier are getting good minutes at the Rebels, again how the fuck does this help Australian Rugby.

Sure Freier is an Aussie but he's old & injury prone & I can't see him ever playing for the Australian Barbarians let alone the Wallabies.

The Rebels & Force were supposed to build depth for the Wallabies why is the ARU letting this happen.

The Force need a massive kick in the arse they had Brock James, Scott Hilgendorf & Scott Daruda all on their roster & lost them all for Matt Giteau & now they have a halfback playing flyhalf & no back up.
What a fucking joke they should have groomed those 3 players into seasoned super rugby players now 2 of them are completely lost to Australian Super rugby.

The Force have also gone & found a Fijian winger as Will Chambers has gone back to league an an Aussie with a lot of talent who's down on confidence but can play wing or centre.

This post could go on for ever but I think it's time the ARU stepped in & set up a draft or something because we are losing to much good young talent & the Force & Rebels are wasting money & time on players who don't add to the national cause.

This is just a massive Force bash

Tom Hocking was let go. He was given opportunity but attitude and mindset are as important as ability. If you are a pathetic trainer and have a sh1te attitude, you'll lose your place. No other franchise picked him up. Whispers move through camps

Ben Whittaker was the starting hooker last year. He was injured in a trial and has been working his way back in. Nathan Charles has been in outstanding form. Whits will get plenty of rugby. Absolute no problem.

The Force have built depth. The Rebels and Tahs have several starting players that were given an opportunity at the Force that they would never have had with tahs, reds, Brumbies. Jones and Inman at the rebels were both given an opportunity at the Force. Judas O'Connor was considered too small for pro rugby but the Force offered him a place.

Jenkins started for the Tahs against the Force last Sat.......another Force player who probably would have never got a shot unless the Force offered him a place.

The Force have developed a few locals into super rugby players and there will be loads coming through in the next decade

The kids up to 12 years of age are as good as any kids in any rugby stronghold. The development needs to be looked at as opportunity and development is sadly second rate currently. The talent and interest amongst many of the ex pats kids ( kiwis, saffers, east coast ex pats) is high and growing. As more rugby migrants come to WA with the economic boom, you can expect to see plenty of vun der Westhuizins, De Villiers, Lomus and Tamati's lining up for the Force and the wallabies

You have no clue

 

[disco]

I think we've lost a player eligible for Australia for another player eligible for Australia. This was a contractual decision made by the Force, so I assume someone over there thinks that Lynn is the better player. Whether or not this is the right decision the last thing I want to see is more involvement from the ARU on who the Force can and can't contract.

We All know that Lynn is never going to play for Australia, Hockings by a lot on this website had predicted Hockings to be a wallaby if not for injuries. Maybe the Rebels should have picked up Hockings rather than James King if they were out scouting better.

The Rebels can not, however, be expected to put out 15 youngsters on the field at once (especially for a new team in a new market that is trying to build a culture and supporter base, its unrealistic). Perhaps the short term pain is the use of foreign players such as those you mention for the long term gain of developing Wallabies.[/quote]

Why not the Reds did it in 2010. Sure the Reds weren't a new franchise but It's not like the Rebels are doing any better for having these experienced foreign players.

Maybe Ged Robinson and Adam Freier aren't the future Wallabies that you want, but the Force and Rebels cannot be viewed in isolation when considering their capacity to build depth for Australia. Take Freier, while he may not have much chance of playing for the Wallabies again, his move to the Rebels allowed for Fitzpatrick at the Tahs to gain more opportunities. Previously, Freier would have been lost to Aus rugby entirely for this to happen.

Even better the Rebels should have picked up Fitzpatrick and given him more game time & leave Freier at the Tahs to warm the bench.
You only need to look at Hugh Pyle and Nick Phipps to realise that the Rebels are providing a pathway for young Australian talent to get noticed on the Super Rugby stage.
Exactly we need more of it.
The Rebels specifically have already provided an avenue to Super Rugby for players such as Rodzilla and Mitchell and the opportunity for players like Saffy and Vuna to switch back to Rugby. All these players are, I would think, within the definition of 'good Aussie talent'.
Yeah but any team with 30 positions to fill could have done that, it's how much they put into the development of these players that count.

 

[Waylon]

1. Who will support a development team that gets thrashed every week.
2. The talent for these teams will come from somewhere. Hardly going to be much homegrown talent in Vic and WA so expect to see the traditional teams young talent being poached to their detriment.

The question is if there are enough rugby players of the required level in SA.
The "poaching" needs to happen to get enough people

Try buying a ticket to a Force home game if you aren't a member. You get to sit in the far corner at the top of the stadium because its sold out
Try buying a Force "gold membership". You have to wait for someone to die

They are well supported. The good folk of WA like and want rugby and they'll turn out to watch it even if the franchise is struggling. Aussies love an underdog and beating the Tahs gave us a hard - on

The junior numbers are growing exponentially. The talent is quite remarkable. 3 years ago I started a junior rugby club from one ad in the local paper. 100 kids signed up in the first year. This year there is expected to be double that number. Some of these teams are playing in Perth metro now and competing well despite such a short history. Some of these kids have ability in spades........especially the kiwis and Afrikaan boys. Some of the locals are getting into it also

The comments about no home grow talent express ignorance of a high magnitude

Rugby is growing faster in WA than NSW or QLD

Both of these franchises can only put 22 players on the field on game day. To think there aren't players of equal ability in these rugby heartlands that deserve an opportunity is perhaps an insight into the limited thinking and limited vision that has seen the Tahs as perennial underachievers. The Tahs recruitment is schoolboy heavy and many blokes that didn't have the privilege of a private school education aren't considered. Blokes that develop a bit later in club land carry the stigma of not being schoolboy stars and are never considered

 

[disco]

This is just a massive Force bash

Tom Hocking was let go. He was given opportunity but attitude and mindset are as important as ability. If you are a pathetic trainer and have a sh1te attitude, you'll lose your place. No other franchise picked him up. Whispers move through camps

Ben Whittaker was the starting hooker last year. He was injured in a trial and has been working his way back in. Nathan Charles has been in outstanding form. Whits will get plenty of rugby. Absolute no problem.

The Force have built depth. The Rebels and Tahs have several starting players that were given an opportunity at the Force that they would never have had with tahs, reds, Brumbies. Jones and Inman at the rebels were both given an opportunity at the Force. Judas O'Connor was considered too small for pro rugby but the Force offered him a place.

Jenkins started for the Tahs against the Force last Sat.......another Force player who probably would have never got a shot unless the Force offered him a place.

The Force have developed a few locals into super rugby players and there will be loads coming through in the next decade

The kids up to 12 years of age are as good as any kids in any rugby stronghold. The development needs to be looked at as opportunity and development is sadly second rate currently. The talent and interest amongst many of the ex pats kids ( kiwis, saffers, east coast ex pats) is high and growing. As more rugby migrants come to WA with the economic boom, you can expect to see plenty of vun der Westhuizins, De Villiers, Lomus and Tamati's lining up for the Force and the wallabies

You have no clue

Jenkins went to the Tahs because the Force have 20 other backrowers & no 5/8's.

JOC (James O'Connor) was considered to small by the Parramatta Eels not by other Super Rugby Clubs.

Well it seems I've upset the Rebels & Force fans with my comments but I really hope the Brumbies finish higher on the ladder to prove my point that with game time & good coaching these young Aussies are good enough to compete at Super Rugby level.

 

[qwerty51]

Just so you know from the starting side TPN, Kepu, Douglas, Dennis, Palu, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Horne and Foley? didn't go to a private school

 

[Waylon]

The Force need a massive kick in the arse they had Brock James, Scott Hilgendorf & Scott Daruda all on their roster & lost them all for Matt Giteau & now they have a halfback playing flyhalf & no back up.

Brock James was given an opportunity. He wasn't good enough

Daruda was given an opportunity. He wasn't good enough

I was disappointed Hilgendorf moved on but he wasn't a spring chicken when he left the Force