Horwill's captaincy

[gel]

What I find interesting is that many fans and posts on here have commented on it being a test atmosphere and intensity, if it were a test and it was that sort of scoreline and contest, IMO you take whatever points are on offer. Cooper was striking the ball well also.

What I find interesting is that most of the Brumbies' fans seem to be happy with the result and most of the Reds' fans appear to be feeling a bit robbed. At least that is what it appears reading all the comments around the web.

I don't think Horwill should be overly criticised though.

I concur. The game would not have been that way unless he did what he did. It was an epic tussle and a game that was worthy of the finals (by that, I mean it was played by both teams as if a lot more was riding on it than there actually was).

 

[Slim 293]

What I find interesting is that most of the Brumbies' fans seem to be happy with the result and most of the Reds' fans appear to be feeling a bit robbed. At least that is what it appears reading all the comments around the web.

I concur. The game would not have been that way unless he did what he did. It was an epic tussle and a game that was worthy of the finals (by that, I mean it was played by both teams as if a lot more was riding on it than there actually was).

Not really..........

Happy the Brumbies' defence held up so strong, and it's always good to come out from an away game without a loss (with a trophy to boot!)......... but I think Brumbies' supporters are just as unhappy with the refereeing performance for different reasons, and there are a few regrettable moments during the game with a couple of opportunities lost, and Mogg's kick at the end.

 

[Paradox]

Not really....

Happy the Brumbies' defence held up so strong, and it's always good to come out from an away game without a loss (with a trophy to boot!)... but I think Brumbies' supporters are just as unhappy with the refereeing performance for different reasons, and there are a few regrettable moments during the game with a couple of opportunities lost, and Mogg's kick at the end.

Excellent post. I don't think Lilo should have been sent off after a dubious scrum penalty against the Brumbies when they had the feed. Not many penalties had been conceded at that time. I think someone suggested it was for offside? Anyway, won't complain

 

[Scoey]

Horwill was executing a game plan - obviously a fairly rigid one. Whether it was right or not could be debated from now until eternity and we'll still be split. Given how hard the Brumbies made it for us to get out of our own half it's not inconceivable to think that if we took the 3 points with 10 mins to go that we would've spent the final 10 mins trying to get out of our own half and losing by 4. Then you all would have been screaming why take 3 points when 7+ were needed?

Also, using his game last night as the basis for saying he's not the man to captain the Wallabies is simply ridiculous. He wouldn't have been making those same decisions had it been a test match.

He will lead the guys around all night, from the front. He commands respect. He's an automatic selection. No brainer. Period.

 

[Ruggo]

Horwill is a fantastic captain. Enough said really.

 

[Paradox]

Also, using his game last night as the basis for saying he's not the man to captain the Wallabies is simply ridiculous. He wouldn't have been making those same decisions had it been a test match.
He will lead the guys around all night, from the front. He commands respect. He's an automatic selection. No brainer. Period.

Yep, great post. I like the idea of a lock being captain as well.

 

[Scoey]

Haha Paradox I love a longback as captain too. I thought if I went there then I may have been accused of bias.

 

[Richo]

Link and Horwill both made the comment last night that the keep attacking strategy rather than look for 3 points was part of the game plan.

Mowen made the point that the Reds going for quick taps and lineouts/scrums gave the Brumbies no time to have a breather from the pressure and led to them conceding more penalties.

Those decisions by Horwill were what earned the Reds so many penalties. The referee not issuing the extra yellow cards as he should have if he was competent is what now leads to people saying "he should have taken the 3 points" rather than "gutsy decisions but they paid off handsomely".

This will sound counter-intuitive, but you can't judge the decision based on the outcome. You have to judge it within the context of that point in the game. What is more valuable for the Reds? A definite 3 points or a 5m lineout? My guess is that with 15 minutes left, it's a definite 3 points that most increases your chance of winning. (But I don't know for sure... I'd love to know the stats on this and I wonder if anyone has modeled win probabilities in different scenarios). Down 4 is a good position to be in when you've been dominating play. You've come closer and scored quick points. You can put pressure on the kick-off and back yourself to score again.

That's why I thought it was a bad decision at the time. If you reverse the result and the Reds storm over for a try, I still think the decision itself was a bad one - although obviously it was a bad decision with a good outcome. In other words, I'm suggesting that you can't judge the decision based on the outcome, since the decision is made without the outcome being known.

To say it was the ref's fault that the decision didn't work because of a series of actions that happened long after choice itself isn't logical. If things had gone slightly different, the Reds could have been called for not throwing straight on their lineout. Obviously this didn't happen either, but it was a potential outcome that lowers the probability of the lineout strategy working.

Btw, I tipped the Reds. I wanted them to win.

 

[Set piece magic]

Horwill's quick tap was fine, but where was the penalty advantage????

There is no way they were back ten. It was again borderline penalty try. It was again a yellow card. Where where the cards?

 

[jay-c]

my opinion that horwill is not the man to lead the wallabies is not based on last nights performance> i jus wanna make that clear>
im sure any reds supporter will agree that he does like going for a try when 3 points are on offer>
sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt
during the world cup his leadership was shit> there i said it
i still think hes a fantastic lock, i still think hes inspirational and i still think hes one of the best forwards we got
i just dont like his decision making under pressure>

 

[Scotty]

Horwill's quick tap was fine, but where was the penalty advantage????

There is no way they were back ten. It was again borderline penalty try. It was again a yellow card. Where where the cards?

Just watched the replay. Check out Genia's quick tap in the second half. Brumbies defender is all of 5m from him. Jackson is looking straight at him and yet ignores it completely. If brumbies were instead retiring to get onside, Genia likely goes himself and scores.

 

[Scotty]

Excellent post. I don't think Lilo should have been sent off after a dubious scrum penalty against the Brumbies when they had the feed. Not many penalties had been conceded at that time. I think someone suggested it was for offside? Anyway, won't complain

Check out that scrum again. Slipper gets the better of Alexander who folds.

 

[Merrow]

I think it's time to let it go people. Who knows, maybe we can go through it all again in the finals. Replaying it won't change the score.

 

[Gnostic]

Link and Horwill both made the comment last night that the keep attacking strategy rather than look for 3 points was part of the game plan.

Mowen made the point that the Reds going for quick taps and lineouts/scrums gave the Brumbies no time to have a breather from the pressure and led to them conceding more penalties.

Those decisions by Horwill were what earned the Reds so many penalties. The referee not issuing the extra yellow cards as he should have if he was competent is what now leads to people saying "he should have taken the 3 points" rather than "gutsy decisions but they paid off handsomely".

I would agree excepting the bolded part Scott. Yes the Ponies infringed a a fair bit, but some of the play that got them there was illegal as well. The re-starts that Link himself mentioned are a perfect example - Jackson was spot on with his assessment and he should have penalised them on a couple of other occasions as well. Slipper and Holmes had lifted the receiver and brought him down they released and advanced away from the ball carrier as the defenders arrived thereby blocking them from tackling him or moving through to pressurise the deployment of the ball from there. It is a clear obstruction. There are other examples throughout the game. I will not do the usual thing and say he was equally bad for both sides. As a neutral I would polarise both sides of the argument and nothing more, and I think he did well with two sides who in different aspects were as equally poorly disciplined and negative.

On thing I will say is that I cannot wait for the no Hit scrum laws. The scrums were a farce. I cannot tell who infringed more or who really had the upperhand as there were so many infringements by both sides. Please Please Please, IRB pass these interpretations and go back to no hit scrums!!

 

[Scoey]

during the world cup his leadership was shit

I find that comment surprising. We fell down in a lot of areas in the RWC. It was a while ago now but i didn't think that Horwill's leadership was one of the areas that we fell down in. You said his decision making was poor under pressure but can you give any examples in a Wallabies jersey?
I'm not trying to be smart, it's an honest question and my memory may be clouded.

 

[jay-c]

fair call- and i by no means am suggesting horwill was to blame for the wc
id say during the world cup leadership was lacking big time>
everyone is very quick to blame deans for the failings of the world cup but as captain of the team horwill should shoulder his burden of the blame> every decision that was made was made with him> and if it wasnt- hes just a puppet
ireland, new zealand- both these games we were rudderless> and countless times when the camera showed horwill during these games he wasnt the strong 'follow me' leader everyone claims him to be- he was lost and didnt have the answers
now before everyoine jumps to his defense> this is my opinion> and i cant be fucked arguing it, so i wont be continuing this as it spirals out of control>

 

[Scoey]

No that's fine. You may be on the money. It's not quite the way I remember it but I respect your opinion.

 

[Caputo]

What QLD failed to do was put scoreboard pressure on Brumbies. It seems Brumbies lead on the scoreboard for 75% of the match. Some penalities kicks from QLD would have provide scoreboard pressure on the Brumbies.

 

[Brumbieman]

In the context of the game, I agreed with Horwill. I know that, because I was hoping desperately they'd take the damn penalty and give us a breather, at which point we restart on halfway and then suddenly we could have been the one's 10m out and driving for the line.

The fact that it didn't pay off is just simply thanks to that unbelievable defensive effort from the Brumbies, 1-15. Gill was held up, but Daley probably got over, who knows.There were also a few decision that went against us that kept the pressure on too, there was a 3m jackal from Mowen, Kuridrani and someone else that should have given us the chance to clear, but no.

Shit happens. The yellow cards were about right, though Smith should have gone for his kicking the ball away regardless of how accidental it looked. Sio I don't think deserved to, he was well bound in the maul and had no choice to where he ended up.

Whilst I'm gutted that we didn't win, its probably the best result we could have hoped for, bar a 4 try bonus point for each side. At the end of the day the more Aussie sides that make the finals, the less kiwi's, and that improves our chances of someone winning the title. The Tahs could potentially even make it too, if they keep up their weekend's effort.

I am hoping for a rematch down in Canberra though....

 

[Braveheart81]

Horwill's quick tap was fine, but where was the penalty advantage????

There is no way they were back ten. It was again borderline penalty try. It was again a yellow card. Where where the cards?

There should have been a penalty advantage but I don't think you'll ever get a yellow card for players being inside the 10 when a quick tap is taken close to the line.

You're certainly never going to get a penalty try.