Hooper to start

[spectator]

Oh I don't know about that. If indeed the 'times are a changin'" then I will have to acknowledge that. The likes of Nucifora, O'Connor and Deans are far superior rugby brains than those of us that lurk anonymously on forums.

My opinion was based on a good number of years of observation of an existing status quo. If however, increasing professionalism means that younger players are physically and mentally up to the challenge of elite rugby, and numbers of them run on and prove it is the rule rather than the exception, then my opinion becomes irrelevant. That's more than fine. At the end of the day I wish nothing but good luck to these young players.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

OK, here are some stats I did 12 months ago and now, the figues are lower again.
Lowest
Team Average Minimum Run
Age Age on Age
Sharks 24.9 22 22
Bulls 26 20 24
Hurricanes 23.5 20 24
Blues 25.3 22 25
Chiefs 25.5 21 24
Reds 23.1 19 19 (Cooper originally ran on at age 18)
Waratahs 23.1 20 20 (Beale originally ran on at age 18)
Force 24.4 19 19 (JOC (James O'Connor) originally started at age 18)
Brumbies 24.3 19 21 (18 with Hooper in 2010)

 

[Lee Grant]

My opinion was based on a good number of years of observation of an existing status quo. If however, increasing professionalism means that younger players are physically and mentally up to the challenge of elite rugby, and numbers of them run on and prove it is the rule rather than the exception, then my opinion becomes irrelevant.

You are too polite speckie. Your opinion will always be relevant on this matter.

Let's be honest: 18 y.o. players are being used in the professional era more and more not because they are physically or mentally up to the challenge. They are being used more and more because Oz rugby doesn't have enough depth. It doesn't have enough good senior players to fill the rosters of 4 Super squads and the situation won't improve with a 5th team.

Until we get the ARC up and running again, more and more 18 y.o.s will be used if the crop of schoolboys from the previous year is any good. The best predictions are true when you make them.

If a coach had, say, a 21 y.o. and an 18 y.o player, of the same ability he would pick the 21 y.o. every time. If a journo asked him why the 18 y.o. wasn't used he would answer with paternal solicitude that the young bloke needed time to prepare physically and mentally. When we read the article we would get a warm feeling.

If the 21 y.o. got injured he would put the 18 y.o. onto the park without batting an eyelid instead of an older guy who didn't know the position very well. The 18 y.o. may also get a run if the coach thought that other franchises would entice him away from his stable. It's what they do as part of their job. Call it knowing their profession, if you will.

It's a coach job thing and has nothing to do with solicitude for the well being of 18 y.o.s; but it has everything to do with expediency. The naysayers don't mention that kind of thing. As I mentioned before: it is an inconvenient truth to their argument.

That is my last word on the matter until is brought up next year by the usual naysaying suspects of the "if he's good enough he's old enough" and "What about Tim Horan?" clique.


whispers

Interesting figures those. Thanks for posting it as I missed it last time. Must have taken you a bit of time.

 

[Godfrey]

But what's your position on the ARC?

 

[Lee Grant]

The same as anybody else's I suppose. It's a pathway for players, referees and coaches and makes them all better whilst they are doing it. In particular, playing with and against better players regularly for a tournament probably develops their play far better than a few years of playing club rugby. It also toughens them up.

The comp also acts as a filter for Super coaches. There they can see if players are worthy of getting into their Academies for the following year and they may even have a spot open in the Super squad but aren't too sure if Joe Blow can cut the mustard. It's hard to make these assessments at the club level especially if a player is in a weak team. Even if a player is in a strong team, it is difficult to assess his play against lesser sides.

There are too many duds getting into professional academies and even into Super squads. They should be filtered better. It doesn't matter so much for the amateur part of Academies - they are places of learning.



If you meant what is my position on 18 y.o.s playing in an ARC? - it would be better for them than getting their heads twisted off by Bakkies Botha on the high veld in a maul. Most of the ARC players held down jobs and didn't have a lot of time to hit the gym. Even the ARC training was delayed so that people could work.

Any player can get badly injured in any game but the ARC would be a lot more suitable for an 18 y.o. body than the Super14.

That is my last, last word.

 

[Pfitzy]

Watched Ponies v Chiefs. Hooper is good with the ball, but had a couple of bad lapses on defence. To be expected.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

And even those of us so vehemently opposed to the indiscrimate slaughter of young players for the sake of expediency must one day sadly hang our heads in desperation and accept the situation for what it is – professional sport - and just hope and pray like bloody hell some young player that we have watched for 10 years, experienced the highs and lows of his teenage development , cried alongside his parents, isn't minced too fine in the grinder of S14 and somehow emerges relatively capable of developing to an age where he can play to the potential that his body would normally have permitted.

 

[Wazimba2K]

A few years, the Brumbies lost the Fainga'a twins to the Reds because they felt they were too young to play in the Super 14. Do i hear Wallaby jumpers number 2 an 12 for them now? Yes, they are shining in Red!

Andrew Friend did a great thing to give this bloke a chance because with the Rebels getting aggressive with their signing, this Kid might jump ship. We lost Salvi years ago because he realized he didn't want to play second Fiddle to Smith.

After scoring a try in his Debut, I doubt he will be thinking about switching to the Rebels.

Next year Argentina will be joining the freaking Super 14 and we will need great depth to survive all this tours and number of games plus more games against the Rebels. I assume Tri-Nations is play against Super 14 Teams so they better beef up their options.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

A few years, the Brumbies lost the Fainga'a twins to the Reds because they felt they were too young to play in the Super 14. Do i hear Wallaby jumpers number 2 an 12 for them now? Yes, they are shining in Red!

Andrew Friend did a great thing to give this bloke a chance because with the Rebels getting aggressive with their signing, this Kid might jump ship. We lost Salvi years ago because he realized he didn't want to play second Fiddle to Smith.

After scoring a try in his Debut, I doubt he will be thinking about switching to the Rebels.

Next year Argentina will be joining the freaking Super 14 and we will need great depth to survive all this tours and number of games plus more games against the Rebels. I assume Tri-Nations is play against Super 14 Teams so they better beef up their options.

Not true, both had debuted around 19/20 and if it weren't for injuries they both would have continued playing there. Anthony had a streak of injuries and Brumbies did not want to renew his contract, while Saia wanted to continue playing with his brother. Reds gave Anthony that lifeline and now he is definitly repaying them with his current form.

Hooper has already signed with the Brumbies, don't think the switch will be on his mind at all either.

 

[Pfitzy]

BG - whenever you're posting after Wazimba2K, please keep in mind he is as mad as Maddy McMad, who won gold at the Mad Olympics in both the 100m, 200m, and marathon for Mad Madness.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

BG - whenever you're posting after Wazimba2K, please keep in mind he is as mad as Maddy McMad, who won gold at the Mad Olympics in both the 100m, 200m, and marathon for Mad Madness.

Ah still learning! All makes sense now tho.

 

[en_force_er]

BG - whenever you're posting after Wazimba2K, please keep in mind he is as mad as Maddy McMad, who won gold at the Mad Olympics in both the 100m, 200m, and marathon for Mad Madness.

Ah still learning! All makes sense now tho.

... so Argentina isn't joining the "freaking super 14"?

 

[Spook]

Watched Ponies v Chiefs. Hooper is good with the ball, but had a couple of bad lapses on defence. To be expected.

Are you referring to the big gap left outside the lineout that Donald waltzed through? I came to the same conclusion.

 

[liquor box]

The same as anybody else's I suppose. It's a pathway for players, referees and coaches and makes them all better whilst they are doing it. In particular, playing with and against better players regularly for a tournament probably develops their play far better than a few years of playing club rugby. It also toughens them up.

The comp also acts as a filter for Super coaches. There they can see if players are worthy of getting into their Academies for the following year and they may even have a spot open in the Super squad but aren't too sure if Joe Blow can cut the mustard. It's hard to make these assessments at the club level especially if a player is in a weak team. Even if a player is in a strong team, it is difficult to assess his play against lesser sides.

There are too many duds getting into professional academies and even into Super squads. They should be filtered better. It doesn't matter so much for the amateur part of Academies - they are places of learning.



If you meant what is my position on 18 y.o.s playing in an ARC? - it would be better for them than getting their heads twisted off by Bakkies Botha on the high veld in a maul. Most of the ARC players held down jobs and didn't have a lot of time to hit the gym. Even the ARC training was delayed so that people could work.

Any player can get badly injured in any game but the ARC would be a lot more suitable for an 18 y.o. body than the Super14.

That is my last, last word.

I think a better pathway would be for a "seconds" comp between the Aussie S14 teams as curtain raisers for all test matches, this will give them exposue=re to the big time

 

[Pfitzy]

Are you referring to the big gap left outside the lineout that Donald waltzed through? I came to the same conclusion.

There was that, but in the lead up to Leonard's try he also looked a little lost on defence a couple of times. His failure to help bring Leonard to ground was a direct contributor but the couple of phases before that he was looking around a bit lost in defence

 

[Spook]

Are you referring to the big gap left outside the lineout that Donald waltzed through? I came to the same conclusion.

There was that, but in the lead up to Leonard's try he also looked a little lost on defence a couple of times. His failure to help bring Leonard to ground was a direct contributor but the couple of phases before that he was looking around a bit lost in defence

I thought Hoiles was the main offender in that move. Woeful tackling.

 

[Pfitzy]

Probably right. What bugs me is Hooper didn't assist or go for the ball.

 

[Lee Grant]

Sack him - he played like a teenager.

On a more serious note: Hill was so wide at the lineout that Hooper shouldn't have gone directly at him. He should have ran directly sideways so Latimer couldn't block him and then grab him as Hooper tried to run around Latimer to get at Hill.

Then at the subsequent tackle Hoiles and Phibbs should have noticed Leonard getting up and tackled him. Don't blame Hooper for being slow off the mark. Latimer was holding his jersey then too.

Avoiding these things are a part of the learning curve you get in senior club rugby. You don't get a lot of cynical play at the schools level. He shouldn't be learning such things on the job in the Super14, but that reason for excluding him is chicken feed compared the damage he could sustain tackling a Lauaki type with a shoulder that had a reconstruction about 8 months ago.

I wasn't going to talk about this matter again on this thread? Excuuuuuse me.


One thing I liked about Chris Alcock's play for the Tahs against the Cheetahs is that he did the Latimer type blocking and other sly things as if to the manor born. Not bad for a guy I have never seen play the position before this year. And when he got a run in the Gordon 1st Grade team it was as an 8, but more often than not Villie Ratu got the gig.

Methinks the new Gordon coach will think about giving him the 7 jumper this year.

But I digress.

 

[en_force_er]

One thing I liked about Chris Alcock's play for the Tahs against the Cheetahs is that he did the Latimer type blocking and other sly things as if to the manor born. Not bad for a guy I have never seen play the position before this year. And when he got a run in the Gordon 1st Grade team it was as an 8, but more often than not Villie Ratu got the gig.

Methinks the new Gordon coach will think about giving him the 7 jumper this year.

But I digress.

Alcock was quite good. My question is why the hell would the Tahs have risked it?

I mean there are good, developed 7s in Waratahland and they take a punt on a player who plays half 2nd grade/half 1st grade? It's a big risk. Alcock would of still been handy in 2 years but he may of not been handy now. Big risk.

It paid off though.

 

[topo]

One thing I liked about Chris Alcock's play for the Tahs against the Cheetahs is that he did the Latimer type blocking and other sly things as if to the manor born. Not bad for a guy I have never seen play the position before this year. And when he got a run in the Gordon 1st Grade team it was as an 8, but more often than not Villie Ratu got the gig.

Methinks the new Gordon coach will think about giving him the 7 jumper this year.

But I digress.

Alcock was quite good. My question is why the hell would the Tahs have risked it?

I mean there are good, developed 7s in Waratahland and they take a punt on a player who plays half 2nd grade/half 1st grade? It's a big risk. Alcock would of still been handy in 2 years but he may of not been handy now. Big risk.

It paid off though.

Who are the other 7s at the tahs? McCutcheon was injured after playing in the HK7s, Coridas is not a 7 and has no form anyway. Maybe play Dennis there, move Mumm to 6 and start Caldwell, but I think there is still a concern about Caldwell's ability to play 80 after his illness. I think their hand was forced a bit. But you're right. It worked.