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Arch Winning (36)
I think the big thing to come out of this is:
Isn't it an indictment on the Brumbies organisation that they don't have a suitable Super 14 quality replacement for George Smith? I mean, how piss poor is that?
The much maligned Force do and also the Reds (too many in fact).
Poor recruitment and retention if you ask me. Should of replaced Salvi. I think they're going to regret it....
Isn't it an indictment on the Brumbies organisation that they don't have a suitable Super 14 quality replacement for George Smith? I mean, how piss poor is that?
The much maligned Force do and also the Reds (too many in fact).
Poor recruitment and retention if you ask me. Should of replaced Salvi. I think they're going to regret it....
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
As I've said a few times since I knew Hooper was going to the Brumbies, with the usual disclaimers about a schoolboy forward: Hooper could be the long term successor to Smith someday.
Maybe the Brumbies have done better than we think. Colby Finger looks good too; though I made no such claims about him.
Watch this space.
Maybe the Brumbies have done better than we think. Colby Finger looks good too; though I made no such claims about him.
Watch this space.
:thumb
the gambler
Dave Cowper (27)
Reddy! said:
:nta: Well there is 4 in one generation.
I do tend to be on the L.G and Whispers side of this debate but am prepared to look at each selection on a case by case basis.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I expect that such observations are made after the fact of their appearance gambler, when a schoolboy wonder has succeeded and also not been butchered.
I expect also that some people who agree with my view before the fact are regular watchers of schools rugby, and/or have a boy who is, or has been, an elite schools player.
I expect also that some people who agree with my view before the fact are regular watchers of schools rugby, and/or have a boy who is, or has been, an elite schools player.
S
Spook
Guest
AussieDominance said:
Stop playing league players in your team.
T
tranquility
Guest
Personally, I look forward to seeing this bloke run around on saturday. If he is as good as he is being touted than he is the future of the Brumbies 7 jersey. I know David well enough and when he made his debut at 17 (in a trial) and 18 in South Africa at in super 14, he showed ability but he looked off the pace. Within 12 to 18 months he had improved so rapidly that he outplayed Richie McCaw in a game at subiaco at 19 or maybe he has turned 20. Michael Hooper is only fractionally smaller than Pocock at the same age.
My point being, give the man his shot - however the proof will be in the pudding in 24 months when the other young 7s are running around, ie; Colby Finger, Liam Gill and even Eddy Quirk and the relative advantage of being thrown into the deep-end might be easier to compare.
My point being, give the man his shot - however the proof will be in the pudding in 24 months when the other young 7s are running around, ie; Colby Finger, Liam Gill and even Eddy Quirk and the relative advantage of being thrown into the deep-end might be easier to compare.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
tranquility said:
It's not just personal to you. Every rugby lover will look forward to seeing him play and I am the worst hypocrite in the world in that regard. One can disagree with the system of using too young players, yet enjoy watching them play once the die has been cast for them by the coach.
As I said before, it's part of what I think is a problem. People of the if the "if he's good enough, he's old enough, and what about Tim Horan ..." school of thought want to see new good Oz players so much they don't think of anything else.
Your point of comparison to other young players in the future is right and always will be, but there is no mention of more important considerations. For example: the long term physical impact on a young player playing against powerful elite senior professionals before his time.
And let's not even think about an unfavourable short term impact to a lad who went under the knife for a shoulder reconstruction about 9 months ago.
spectator
Bob Davidson (42)
Not so sure Biffo. DHP and Stefano Hunt at the Force look like they were thrown into S14 too early, Davies and Connor were blooded too early, with the former lucky enough to turn things around. Gavin Warren got an S14 start a couple of seasons back as a prop, and hasn't been sighted since that one game. Cooper was pilloried by all last year as not being good enough, but really, he was too young. Plenty of examples.
Not a naysayer at all, I honestly wish this young bloke well, and from everything I hear he might just go well.
Not a naysayer at all, I honestly wish this young bloke well, and from everything I hear he might just go well.
Biffo
Ken Catchpole (46)
spectator said:
An interesting group, Mate. We won't know about DHP and Hunt for a while yet. Davies doesn't seem to have suffered any harm. I doubt whether Connor was going ever to have the physique for S14. Cooper has certainly taken no harm - 21 (?) years old, everyone's choice for Wallaby 10, chock full of confidence and almost free of injury so far. Warren - IIRC that was when the Reds had a propping crisis. Know where he is now?
In the case of Hooper, whom I have not seen live or on TV, I am prepared to agree with the decision. Andy Friend would surely not have made the decision alone; I am sure Bill Young, Melon, Rocky and the great George Smith would all have been consulted, along with the physiologist, doctor, trainers and other specialists. This is the Brumbies.
The name George Smith reminds me of my first sight of him in gold and green - in Tokyo in 2000, en route to Europe. I think that was his first run for the Wallabies, albeit not in a Test. I sat with a man who had coached George in age teams and who told me of his prodigious talent and his precocity. I have never forgotten that man's correct use of the word precocity. Hooper doubtless has it. I hope he can deliver even a significant fraction of the talent of the great man he seeks to succeed.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Let's not mention Hooper in comparison to Smith or Pocock. Maybe we could have done that had he played rugby in his last year of school, but as I have said before he had a shoulder reconstruction at age 17. Nobody has seen a lot of him in the senior game.
Maybe my several mentions about his operation were overlooked by the naysayers to the conservative views of spectator, RW or myself; maybe they were ignored. Nor has there been much discussion by the naysayers of the impact on 18 year olds of collisions with big, powerful, elite, professional, senior players when they have had scant physical preparation. It's not important to them otherwise they would have mentioned it. It's understandable; they are good people, but he's not their boy and it doesn't compute.
Nor has there been any rebuttal of the suggestion that a player can take only so much impact during their professional careers and that they will be better served by shifting that career forward a year or two, by which time their bodies will be better prepared. It's an inconvenient truth.
The folks at the Brumbies know these things as did the people in other franchises who used other 18 y.o.s No, they don't think they are deliberately putting 18 y.o.s in harm's way; just ask them. Are they interested that an 18 y.o. can't have the physical conditioning yet to deal with a Bakkies Botha contact after contact. They'll say he's a tough young guy and they'll back him.
Are they concerned that a lad shouldn't be started until he's about the age George Smith was, close to 20? No, Pocock was 18 and he's going OK. What about the likelihood that a kid has only so many tackles to absorb in a career and it should be shifted forward? You have to be kidding; they won't be around then.
People should take more note of this:
spectator has seen a lot of schools rugby and the transition of boys from there to the senior game. He should be listened to.
I've seen a bit of schools rugby myself and there's only three I can remember that I would have played in Super rugby as soon as possible, if they were good enough in trials: TPN, David Pocock and Lloyd Johansson, who were all man boys. But if they had had a shoulder reconstruction at age 17, even they wouldn't be on the list.
But I have digressed.
Let's not compare Hooper to Pocock at 18, or Smith close to 20, when they debuted in Super rugby. Let's do the comparison in a few years time and hope that the subject is still relevant. Let's have a look Colby Fainga'a when he comes from the bench also. He is 19 next week and at least has had a full year in the gym since he left school, not weeks, and he can play.
Maybe my several mentions about his operation were overlooked by the naysayers to the conservative views of spectator, RW or myself; maybe they were ignored. Nor has there been much discussion by the naysayers of the impact on 18 year olds of collisions with big, powerful, elite, professional, senior players when they have had scant physical preparation. It's not important to them otherwise they would have mentioned it. It's understandable; they are good people, but he's not their boy and it doesn't compute.
Nor has there been any rebuttal of the suggestion that a player can take only so much impact during their professional careers and that they will be better served by shifting that career forward a year or two, by which time their bodies will be better prepared. It's an inconvenient truth.
The folks at the Brumbies know these things as did the people in other franchises who used other 18 y.o.s No, they don't think they are deliberately putting 18 y.o.s in harm's way; just ask them. Are they interested that an 18 y.o. can't have the physical conditioning yet to deal with a Bakkies Botha contact after contact. They'll say he's a tough young guy and they'll back him.
Are they concerned that a lad shouldn't be started until he's about the age George Smith was, close to 20? No, Pocock was 18 and he's going OK. What about the likelihood that a kid has only so many tackles to absorb in a career and it should be shifted forward? You have to be kidding; they won't be around then.
People should take more note of this:
spectator said:
spectator has seen a lot of schools rugby and the transition of boys from there to the senior game. He should be listened to.
I've seen a bit of schools rugby myself and there's only three I can remember that I would have played in Super rugby as soon as possible, if they were good enough in trials: TPN, David Pocock and Lloyd Johansson, who were all man boys. But if they had had a shoulder reconstruction at age 17, even they wouldn't be on the list.
But I have digressed.
Let's not compare Hooper to Pocock at 18, or Smith close to 20, when they debuted in Super rugby. Let's do the comparison in a few years time and hope that the subject is still relevant. Let's have a look Colby Fainga'a when he comes from the bench also. He is 19 next week and at least has had a full year in the gym since he left school, not weeks, and he can play.
Jethro Tah
Bob Loudon (25)
For what it's worth, here is Growden's take on the subject:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...wallaby-emerging-in-droves-20100402-rjru.html
New breed of Wallaby emerging in droves
April 3, 2010
Australian rugby is going through a dramatic regeneration phase, with the young pups taking over the game. Partly caused by necessity due to extensive injury lists among the four Australian Super 14 provinces, especially the Western Force, a number of teenagers and new faces have appeared in the tournament this year.
Not that long ago, it was a rarity to see a kid just out of school in the Super 14. This year it has been the norm. And in the background, the Australian Sevens team keeps producing vibrant talent, including 17-year-old Queensland breakaway Liam Gill, who was this week signed by the Reds.
Australian Rugby Union officials say the new breed will have a presence in next year's World Cup in New Zealand. However, it is at the 2015 tournament that the next generation could really make the Wallabies a dominant force.
Already the fresh faces are starting to infiltrate the Wallabies squad, as 19-year-old Queensland utility back Luke Morahan and 20-year-old ACT five-eighth Matt To'omua appeared in the midweek games on last year's end-of-season northern hemisphere tour.
Other newcomers have stepped up this year, including 18-year-old Michael Hooper, who handled with aplomb his first match for the Brumbies last weekend when he had to take over from the injured George Smith at openside breakaway. To replace Smith, Australia's greatest No.7, would be a daunting task, but Hooper was up to it.
And over at the Force, where due to a horrendous injury list they have had to field 37 players this year, they just keep picking newcomer after newcomer.
No wonder Wallabies coach Robbie Deans, who is determined to push the youth policy, ARU high-performance David Nucifora and Australian Sevens coach Michael O'Connor were in a buoyant mood during the week at the ARU Sevens Schoolboys tournament at St Ignatius' College, Riverview. Nucifora, who is also a Wallabies selector, said he would not be surprised if a healthy proportion of youngsters involved in their first or second season of Super 14 were vying for World Cup spots next year.
''You already have guys like Morahan and To'omua putting their hands up,'' Nucifora said. ''It's a bit hard to say with some of the others, but they could be there, or thereabouts. Some of the kids are physically ready for it, and some are physically and mentally ready for it. You do need to have both things addressed to be able to get there and perform.''
Nucifora stressed that while Super 14 was vitally important, Sevens football was also crucial in producing and nurturing talent. ''People at the Hong Kong Sevens tournament last weekend couldn't believe these kids in the Australian team were as young as they were, especially Gill, who is only 17, playing as well as he did,'' he said.
''The fact that we have Gill, Hooper and Colby Fainga'a all from the Sevens coming through is positive. You do get clusters like that. Last year, when we were picking the Australian under-20s side, we struggled to find a top-notch No.7. The year before that we had David Pocock. This year we've got three. So we've had Pocock, no one, and then three of these kids. It's promising.
''The Sevens program is so important for us just to prepare them. Playing Sevens enables them to get the core basics - to tackle, to contest the football, to be able to carry are all the primary elements that they need. They're exposed to doing it internationally - involving travel and playing in front of big crowds.''
O'Connor, the former Wallabies centre and dual international, said playing for the Australian Sevens is the ultimate initiation, especially with the lure of it now being a Commonwealth Games and Olympic sport.
''It's a real experience,'' he said. ''On finals day in Hong Kong, playing in front of 40,000 people, their eyes were nearly popping out of their head. They aimed up, too. They're young blokes who wanted to have a crack. It's a great program, and it will only get better.''
So expect the average age of a Wallaby to soon drop dramatically. Youth is already starting to take over. In Australia's last Test, against Wales in Cardiff, the average age of the starting XV was 24½, with three 21-year-olds (Quade Cooper, Will Genia and Pocock), and 10 under the age of 26. On the same weekend in November, the All Blacks and Springboks fielded teams which both boasted average ages over 27.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...wallaby-emerging-in-droves-20100402-rjru.html
New breed of Wallaby emerging in droves
April 3, 2010
Australian rugby is going through a dramatic regeneration phase, with the young pups taking over the game. Partly caused by necessity due to extensive injury lists among the four Australian Super 14 provinces, especially the Western Force, a number of teenagers and new faces have appeared in the tournament this year.
Not that long ago, it was a rarity to see a kid just out of school in the Super 14. This year it has been the norm. And in the background, the Australian Sevens team keeps producing vibrant talent, including 17-year-old Queensland breakaway Liam Gill, who was this week signed by the Reds.
Australian Rugby Union officials say the new breed will have a presence in next year's World Cup in New Zealand. However, it is at the 2015 tournament that the next generation could really make the Wallabies a dominant force.
Already the fresh faces are starting to infiltrate the Wallabies squad, as 19-year-old Queensland utility back Luke Morahan and 20-year-old ACT five-eighth Matt To'omua appeared in the midweek games on last year's end-of-season northern hemisphere tour.
Other newcomers have stepped up this year, including 18-year-old Michael Hooper, who handled with aplomb his first match for the Brumbies last weekend when he had to take over from the injured George Smith at openside breakaway. To replace Smith, Australia's greatest No.7, would be a daunting task, but Hooper was up to it.
And over at the Force, where due to a horrendous injury list they have had to field 37 players this year, they just keep picking newcomer after newcomer.
No wonder Wallabies coach Robbie Deans, who is determined to push the youth policy, ARU high-performance David Nucifora and Australian Sevens coach Michael O'Connor were in a buoyant mood during the week at the ARU Sevens Schoolboys tournament at St Ignatius' College, Riverview. Nucifora, who is also a Wallabies selector, said he would not be surprised if a healthy proportion of youngsters involved in their first or second season of Super 14 were vying for World Cup spots next year.
''You already have guys like Morahan and To'omua putting their hands up,'' Nucifora said. ''It's a bit hard to say with some of the others, but they could be there, or thereabouts. Some of the kids are physically ready for it, and some are physically and mentally ready for it. You do need to have both things addressed to be able to get there and perform.''
Nucifora stressed that while Super 14 was vitally important, Sevens football was also crucial in producing and nurturing talent. ''People at the Hong Kong Sevens tournament last weekend couldn't believe these kids in the Australian team were as young as they were, especially Gill, who is only 17, playing as well as he did,'' he said.
''The fact that we have Gill, Hooper and Colby Fainga'a all from the Sevens coming through is positive. You do get clusters like that. Last year, when we were picking the Australian under-20s side, we struggled to find a top-notch No.7. The year before that we had David Pocock. This year we've got three. So we've had Pocock, no one, and then three of these kids. It's promising.
''The Sevens program is so important for us just to prepare them. Playing Sevens enables them to get the core basics - to tackle, to contest the football, to be able to carry are all the primary elements that they need. They're exposed to doing it internationally - involving travel and playing in front of big crowds.''
O'Connor, the former Wallabies centre and dual international, said playing for the Australian Sevens is the ultimate initiation, especially with the lure of it now being a Commonwealth Games and Olympic sport.
''It's a real experience,'' he said. ''On finals day in Hong Kong, playing in front of 40,000 people, their eyes were nearly popping out of their head. They aimed up, too. They're young blokes who wanted to have a crack. It's a great program, and it will only get better.''
So expect the average age of a Wallaby to soon drop dramatically. Youth is already starting to take over. In Australia's last Test, against Wales in Cardiff, the average age of the starting XV was 24½, with three 21-year-olds (Quade Cooper, Will Genia and Pocock), and 10 under the age of 26. On the same weekend in November, the All Blacks and Springboks fielded teams which both boasted average ages over 27.
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