Hometown Refs

[Tex]

Just chiming in to say that the Argie ref absolutely boned the Reds a number of times. Total head scratchers

 

[Dan54]

It’s the officiating at the breakdown where the lopsided penalties come into their own. Argies today were taking out the halfback, lying all over the ball, and coming in from the side and getting away with it. In contrast, a number of times Reds players appeared to be on their feet and, without any warning from the ref for hands off the ball, were penalised.

We also have to remember that while some saying the refs are not neutral. those generally that are watching the games and disagreeing are certainly not neutral either! So we have to be a little careful.

 

[Dan54]

It also begs the question, what is a neutral ref? They are not playing tests, so really any ref in Australia that is not from Qld is a neutral when Reds play! Same as NZ and SA. Then if you want to get really hard hat, what if the team you are reffing is neck and neck with your home team in comp, do you think ref would want them to then lose??
See it not that straight forward!

 

[Wilson]

The advantage to going neutral is it removes a perception of bias and allows the performances of the ref to be judged with a greater impartiality. Obviously neutral refs are more expensive, but why shouldn't more money be spent on ensuring the refereeing is up to standard? It would also help introduce some consistency across the refereeing - all of the refs are employed by the one entity, report to the same place and get their direction from the same place. This consistent block of refs could also see SANZAAR nations wielding greater influence of refereeing at an international level, something that has been an issue for a while.

The greater problem here is I think the related to the biggest issue with the administration of the competition as a whole - it's still a collection of national unions making up SANZAAR, rather then a separate Super Rugby Commission, making decisions in the best interest of the competition, and it's marketability. I would love to see Super Rugby head in this direction in the next broadcast deal (or more realistically the one after), there is so much unrealized potential in this competition.

 

[Dan54]

The advantage to going neutral is it removes a perception of bias and allows the performances of the ref to be judged with a greater impartiality. Obviously neutral refs are more expensive, but why shouldn't more money be spent on ensuring the refereeing is up to standard? It would also help introduce some consistency across the refereeing - all of the refs are employed by the one entity, report to the same place and get their direction from the same place. This consistent block of refs could also see SANZAAR nations wielding greater influence of refereeing at an international level, something that has been an issue for a while.

The greater problem here is I think the related to the biggest issue with the administration of the competition as a whole - it's still a collection of national unions making up SANZAAR, rather then a separate Super Rugby Commission, making decisions in the best interest of the competition, and it's marketability. I would love to see Super Rugby head in this direction in the next broadcast deal (or more realistically the one after), there is so much unrealized potential in this competition.

Think you will find all the refs are employed by the same entity, SANZAAR for the purposes of Super, and answer to the SANZAAR ref's board!

 

[KevinO]

On saying this we need to remember the stats next time we complain about injustice in NZ. Figures show it’s not happening.

It is, NZ are just better at it. They don't blow the penalties and give the cards. It's just called fair play instead of a penalty.

No facts behind this statement, just watched enough games to see players enter from the side, leave there feet and not roll away at rucks with out getting pinged to think that is why.

 

[Wilson]

Think you will find all the refs are employed by the same entity, SANZAAR for the purposes of Super, and answer to the SANZAAR ref's board!

They are but it's a bit lacking at the moment. The individual national unions have their own refs coaches supporting the refs and the refs are also employed by their national unions. On paper the current system is not bad and they have worked to improve it but because SANZAAR lacks direction it does as well. A move to neutral refs helps force some of the benefits you'd get because the support structures from these referees has to be in place when they are operating more regularly outside their home unions. This is still a problem internationally as well - during the world cup Australia sent their refs coach over as they didn't feel world rugby was providing enough support to the referees in tournament.

 

[Ignoto]

See it not that straight forward!

Dan I think you're on the right track and I would take it even further. There was a podcast I listened to where they're spoke to the head MLB (baseball) Umpire about decision making. These Umpires are well aware that they will make mistakes no matter how good they are, they're human beings. They then found themselves knowing they accidentally made the wrong call and tried to make up for a bad call by swinging the other way.

So, by having a home town ref, not only do you run the perceived risk of being seen as bias from the outside, you also place them in a position where they 'may' be hyper vigilant that they don't want to be seen as bias and not make a call for the home team.

It's nothing but a lose, lose situation.

If we're concerned about it being a costly endeavor to have a neutral ref, then pass that cost onto the home team. If the Argies are serious about being in the competition then it's time for them to show it. With there being 4 officials, I think at a minimum, 50% of that should be neutral.

 

[dru]

It also begs the question, what is a neutral ref? They are not playing tests, so really any ref in Australia that is not from Qld is a neutral when Reds play! Same as NZ and SA. Then if you want to get really hard hat, what if the team you are reffing is neck and neck with your home team in comp, do you think ref would want them to then lose??
See it not that straight forward!

Talk about conflation. Yes it is.

Kiwi ref's for Australian teams v RSA teams
Australian refs for Kiwi teams v RSA teams
RSA refs for Kiwi teams v Aus

And NEVER does an Argentinian ref a Jaguares game.

 

[yourmatesam]

Tin foil hat territory guys, don't worry about the country of origin - worry about the referee's skill level.

Refs will stuff things up, just as players will.

For the record - I didn't see the game in question but clearly it was a shocker!

 

[Rebels3]

The stats are pretty damming, especially when you consider in a 2 horse race the one team has won 27 of the last 29 penalty counts. Now I’m not saying it’s cheating as I believe the game is better than that, but equally it isn’t a coincidence either. Thats a 7% chance of going to SA and getting on the refs good side. I’m a believer that stats don’t always tell the story, for instance the missed tackle stat is a terrible indication of effectiveness, so surely there is a story why it’s so low. The question is what is it and why?

 

[Strewthcobber]

The stats are pretty damming, especially when you consider in a 2 horse race the one team has won 27 of the last 29 penalty counts. Now I’m not saying it’s cheating as I believe the game is better than that, but equally it isn’t a coincidence either. Thats a 7% chance of going to SA and getting on the refs good side. I’m a believer that stats don’t always tell the story, for instance the missed tackle stat is a terrible indication of effectiveness, so surely there is a story why it’s so low. The question is what is it and why?

Plausible guess (maybe?). Australian and New Zealand teams strive to score tries under penalty advantage, and are successful, thus not recording as many penalties as the South African teams at home who want the 3 points more often.

 

[Mr Wobbly]

Stuart Berry is a classic example of why neutral refs are needed. Any team that played the Lions with him reffing had bugger all chance of winning. Eventually he was sacked by SANZAAR but, for some bizarre reason, was picked up by the Pro 14. He must have done a decent enough job as he was picked to ref their final a couple of years ago.

Of course neutral refs can still be incompetent and can be affected by a noisy home crowd and so forth but that's different to blatant bias. At the very least neutral refs would remove some of the perceived bias and possibly put an end to some obvious favouritism.

On the Reds game, 13 penalties isn't an outrageous number (especially for the Reds) and probably only one or two of them were flabbergast worthy. The issue is that the Jags were able to get away with murder all game with no repercussions. I'm pretty sure one of their penalties came right at the end, when the game was over as a contest. That was more than just incompetence.

 

[dru]

Stuart Berry is a classic example of why neutral refs are needed. Any team that played the Lions with him reffing had bugger all chance of winning. Eventually he was sacked by SANZAAR but, for some bizarre reason, was picked up by the Pro 14. He must have done a decent enough job as he was picked to ref their final a couple of years ago.

Of course neutral refs can still be incompetent and can be affected by a noisy home crowd and so forth but that's different to blatant bias. At the very least neutral refs would remove some of the perceived bias and possibly put an end to some obvious favouritism.

On the Reds game, 13 penalties isn't an outrageous number (especially for the Reds) and probably only one or two of them were flabbergast worthy. The issue is that the Jags were able to get away with murder all game with no repercussions. I'm pretty sure one of their penalties came right at the end, when the game was over as a contest. That was more than just incompetence.

Ref was focused on the defending team. The 13 penalties were certainly outrageous in the flow of the game. More importantly, as you observe, the lack of reffing the attacking team had major implication that without doubt effected the outcome of the game.

It is a problem he might be given the opportunity to resolve in future games, just not in Argentina.

 

[Dan54]

Just I not sure how many in this discussion have been around for awhile, and I understand everyone's frustration when they think their team is hard done by, but I have been in this site long enough to recall when there were members screaming not to let Owens ref AB/Wallaby tests, he is arguably one of the best refs around (and that not from me, that is most international commentators), but because he reffed Wallabies getting beaten, there were a number in here claiming he had bias!!
See if you understand me, that is what destroys many arguments, we all tend to think our team is the one that is hard done by, and it is not just in here or on Aus sites, many in NZ, SA ,Welsh etc etc sites are similar if you read it. I have yet to read in here someone saying my team won, but geez the ref was all in our favour!!

 

[Zero_Cool]

Okay, this is quite odd, I'm actually working on a similar thing, but my data is showing there is very little difference between any of the refs.

I am more than happy to accept my spreadsheet skills are abhorrent, but it's odd we'd arrive at quite dramatically different conclusions.

Here is my spreadsheet thus far, it's held together with bubblegum and sticky tape.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Ii8JZe3MkMsveT5FrGe-ZWzO16qjf5LR8PaHLzZrnU/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Braveheart81]

I wonder how much of SANZAAR getting rid of neutral referees was cost saving and how much of it was improving the work experience of their referee group?

Even with just ensuring the main referee was not from the host country (or the opposition) would presumably increase the number of long trips the referees had to do massively.

 

[Dan54]

Great work, but what do the spreadsheets show? Pardon my ignorance fellas, I just an old bugger who watches rugby and really think main spreadsheet is someone won and lost ,or perhaps turnovers,tackles etc.

 

[barbarian]

I wonder how much of SANZAAR getting rid of neutral referees was cost saving and how much of it was improving the work experience of their referee group?

Even with just ensuring the main referee was not from the host country (or the opposition) would presumably increase the number of long trips the referees had to do massively.

Yes, and I believe all refs would hold day jobs away from the game. So that becomes very hard if you have to hop on a plane to Buenos Aires or Joburg every few weeks.

 

[qwerty51]

I wonder how much of SANZAAR getting rid of neutral referees was cost saving and how much of it was improving the work experience of their referee group?

Even with just ensuring the main referee was not from the host country (or the opposition) would presumably increase the number of long trips the referees had to do massively.

I've looked at the draw sometimes and referee allocations and they just don't make sense, certainly not trying to save travel costs sometimes.